Wobei das ja nur eine Stimme ist, wobei ich da auch nur zustimmen kann. Die Drei bei "Talk unterm Turm" wirkten auch nicht wirklich überzeugt...
Wind- und Anlaufregel: Endlich faire Wettkämpfe - oder unnötiger Ballast?
- Ersteller Benjamin
- Erstellt am
Wobei das ja nur eine Stimme ist, wobei ich da auch nur zustimmen kann. Die Drei bei "Talk unterm Turm" wirkten auch nicht wirklich überzeugt...
danii85
linker Spinner
ich glaub allerdings das dass die FIS nen sch**** interessiert was die athleten denken...da gehts nur um den kommerz und tv-präsens...aber man wird sehen wie es sich ausgeht...ich hoff das skispringen wird nich so runter gewirtschaftet wie die kombination..
MK23 - skiimport
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- But what annoys me the most is the fact that FIS(Hofer) is trying to say that without new rules it is just not possible to have 'fair' and 'safe' competition nowdays. But those old rules do not belong to 1930's or 1950's, they were used through this century also!
If the problem was in fairness, what should we think now about all the winners and champions from past 10 years??Was Schmitt lucky in Lahti 2001, was Ljoekelsoey lucky in Planica 2004, was Morgenstern lucky when he won his Olympic title, maybe Ahonen didn't really deserve his 4th and 5th Tournee win? Heck, even this season we had so many exciting and close competitions organized under 'old rules'! Was Kofler only lucky when he won Tournee?? If it is not possible to have fair results without windregel, then all the results from last 10 years (or to be more precise, from the beginning of ski-jumping) should be marked with a asterisk. Of course that sometimes we can have a really 'lucky' winner, but it happens VERY RARE and statistics prove that. And there are situations like that in every sport, just look at formula 1. And believe me, outside conditions can have even more influence on final results in alpine skiing then in ski-jumping. What will FIS do with alpines now? If the reason behind this change was only to increase 'fairness', then Pandora's box has been opened.
If the problem was in safety, then why is ski-jumping so much more safe then for ex. Alpine Skiing, which is also FIS discipline? Heck, we even had terrible injury in cross-country skiing this season. But ski-jumping is a risky sport, and every athlete knows this, and there is always chance of injury. But again, how many major injuries have been in ski-jumping in last 10 years, compared to other sports??Or even better, compared to previous periods from ski-jumping history? This is not only a coincidence. And guess what, in Continental Cup this season we had many situations where jumpers went to extreme distances, and when gate would be 100% lowered with 'new rules', but we never heard anything about 'safety' issue from those competitions. Or this is maybe because Continental Cup is not transmitted on TV anyway?
If the problem was in cancellations of events, then how come there were so few of them in last few seasons?? Again, from last 30 ski-flying competitions in Planica organized under old rules (1997-2009) there was just 1 cancellation! Holmenkollen ski festival was cancelled only twice in whole history! And only 1 cancellation out of 43 events in last two seasons! And guess what, even if we didn't have wind corridor in those events organized under new rules, the results would have changed very little without wind bonuses. In Summer Grand Prix, the winner would remain the same 6 times out of 9 (2 times 2nd placed jumper would have won, and in Einsiedeln, competition where 25th placed jumper had longer total distance and total style points then eventual winner 4th placed jumper would won). In world cup, the winner would remain the same 6 times out of 7, the only exception was Oslo where it was clear how wrong those wind instruments can be. In all 5 measurment points, wind is only measured at the exact time of take-off!
If the problem was in breaks, pauses and restarts (again, restarts do happen VERY rare if we analyze complete seasons) during the competitions, then how come ski-jumping was by far the most popular FIS discipline even with old rules? And all of these information can be found on fis-ski.com, so maybe they were lying in the first place? With these new rules, ski-jumping will certianly loose many fans, and I really doubt that it will attract new fans like it did before.
And finally - all of us who watched Nagano '98 live will never forget when Harada jumped 137m in both individual and team competition.
Did he have favorable wind conditions in individual competition compared to for ex. Peterka ? Maybe, but he was in great form then so he really deserved his medal. Was it dangerous for him to do that? Of course it was. But it was so brave - and that is what makes ski jumping such a great sport. Now imagine if he jumped for ex. 128m from lower starting gate. He would receive same, or even bigger amount of points, that would also be great jump, but it would be forgotten very soon. And that is how ski-jumping would look in the future.
If the problem was in fairness, what should we think now about all the winners and champions from past 10 years??Was Schmitt lucky in Lahti 2001, was Ljoekelsoey lucky in Planica 2004, was Morgenstern lucky when he won his Olympic title, maybe Ahonen didn't really deserve his 4th and 5th Tournee win? Heck, even this season we had so many exciting and close competitions organized under 'old rules'! Was Kofler only lucky when he won Tournee?? If it is not possible to have fair results without windregel, then all the results from last 10 years (or to be more precise, from the beginning of ski-jumping) should be marked with a asterisk. Of course that sometimes we can have a really 'lucky' winner, but it happens VERY RARE and statistics prove that. And there are situations like that in every sport, just look at formula 1. And believe me, outside conditions can have even more influence on final results in alpine skiing then in ski-jumping. What will FIS do with alpines now? If the reason behind this change was only to increase 'fairness', then Pandora's box has been opened.
If the problem was in safety, then why is ski-jumping so much more safe then for ex. Alpine Skiing, which is also FIS discipline? Heck, we even had terrible injury in cross-country skiing this season. But ski-jumping is a risky sport, and every athlete knows this, and there is always chance of injury. But again, how many major injuries have been in ski-jumping in last 10 years, compared to other sports??Or even better, compared to previous periods from ski-jumping history? This is not only a coincidence. And guess what, in Continental Cup this season we had many situations where jumpers went to extreme distances, and when gate would be 100% lowered with 'new rules', but we never heard anything about 'safety' issue from those competitions. Or this is maybe because Continental Cup is not transmitted on TV anyway?
If the problem was in cancellations of events, then how come there were so few of them in last few seasons?? Again, from last 30 ski-flying competitions in Planica organized under old rules (1997-2009) there was just 1 cancellation! Holmenkollen ski festival was cancelled only twice in whole history! And only 1 cancellation out of 43 events in last two seasons! And guess what, even if we didn't have wind corridor in those events organized under new rules, the results would have changed very little without wind bonuses. In Summer Grand Prix, the winner would remain the same 6 times out of 9 (2 times 2nd placed jumper would have won, and in Einsiedeln, competition where 25th placed jumper had longer total distance and total style points then eventual winner 4th placed jumper would won). In world cup, the winner would remain the same 6 times out of 7, the only exception was Oslo where it was clear how wrong those wind instruments can be. In all 5 measurment points, wind is only measured at the exact time of take-off!
If the problem was in breaks, pauses and restarts (again, restarts do happen VERY rare if we analyze complete seasons) during the competitions, then how come ski-jumping was by far the most popular FIS discipline even with old rules? And all of these information can be found on fis-ski.com, so maybe they were lying in the first place? With these new rules, ski-jumping will certianly loose many fans, and I really doubt that it will attract new fans like it did before.
And finally - all of us who watched Nagano '98 live will never forget when Harada jumped 137m in both individual and team competition.
Did he have favorable wind conditions in individual competition compared to for ex. Peterka ? Maybe, but he was in great form then so he really deserved his medal. Was it dangerous for him to do that? Of course it was. But it was so brave - and that is what makes ski jumping such a great sport. Now imagine if he jumped for ex. 128m from lower starting gate. He would receive same, or even bigger amount of points, that would also be great jump, but it would be forgotten very soon. And that is how ski-jumping would look in the future.
DieandereFranzi
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Andreas Goldberger kritisiert neue Regeln
http://www.senior-jumping.de/index.php?section=news&cmd=details&newsid=2985
http://www.senior-jumping.de/index.php?section=news&cmd=details&newsid=2985
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Sprungbärchen1
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Person XY kritisiert die neuen Regeln, YX kommt damit eher klar. Wo ist da noch der Sinn der Information!?
Benjamin
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Was mir in dem Zusammenhang aufgefallen ist: Am Samstag wurden auf der Videowand an der Schanze kein einziges Mal die Windabzüge eingeblendet; selbst die Gesamtpunktzahl hat einige Male gefehlt. Dadurch war es natürlich wirklich problematisch, dem Wettkampf zu folgen.
Am Sonntag am Fernseher war der Datenservice gut. An die, die samstags zu Hause waren: Gab es das Problem auch am Fernseher, oder war das nur ein Problem auf der Videowand?
Am Sonntag am Fernseher war der Datenservice gut. An die, die samstags zu Hause waren: Gab es das Problem auch am Fernseher, oder war das nur ein Problem auf der Videowand?
Queeneagle
I am Fire. I am Death.
Ich hab das ganze WE über Eurosport zu Hause geguckt und da war alles Superverständlich. Zwischendurch haben Gerd und Dirk auch noch mal Erklärungen dazu abgegeben, war also auch noch öfters auf diese Unterschiede hingewiesen worden.
Muss mich aber noch dran gewöhnen. Kam mit dem gucken nie schnell genug mit, hab mich erst gegen Ende dran erinnert, dass man ja durchaus auch noch auf die Punktrichterwerungen gucken kann und nicht nur Weite und Abzüge/Pluspunkte im Auge behalten soll. Das heißt wenn die Einblendungen noch 5-10 Sekunden länger bleiben, dann ist es perfekt!
Muss mich aber noch dran gewöhnen. Kam mit dem gucken nie schnell genug mit, hab mich erst gegen Ende dran erinnert, dass man ja durchaus auch noch auf die Punktrichterwerungen gucken kann und nicht nur Weite und Abzüge/Pluspunkte im Auge behalten soll. Das heißt wenn die Einblendungen noch 5-10 Sekunden länger bleiben, dann ist es perfekt!
H
Hillsize
Guest
Ja das sehe ich auch so.
War der neuen Regeln zuerst auch sehr Skeptisch gegenüber.
War der neuen Regeln zuerst auch sehr Skeptisch gegenüber.
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@ Benjamin
Mir ist keine Lücke aufgefallen.
Mir ist keine Lücke aufgefallen.
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Ich packs hier auch mal rein, vielleicht liest es ja hier wer, der sonst sich für den Oslo COC net interessiert...
Die Damen starten heute in Oslo mit neuer Windregel... Bei den herren stehts auch drin... Macht man das nur, um das auf der Schanze vor der WM getestet zu haben? Um zu sehen, ob die angesetzten Werte richtig sind?
Weil normal solls im COC die regel doch nicht geben, oder?
Und zählt die Regel bei den Frauen im COC immer, weils deren höchte Wettkampfebene ist?
Die Damen starten heute in Oslo mit neuer Windregel... Bei den herren stehts auch drin... Macht man das nur, um das auf der Schanze vor der WM getestet zu haben? Um zu sehen, ob die angesetzten Werte richtig sind?
Weil normal solls im COC die regel doch nicht geben, oder?
Und zählt die Regel bei den Frauen im COC immer, weils deren höchte Wettkampfebene ist?
loisteliaskeiju
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Ich würd behaupten: Nein!
Zumindest laut den Regeln der Fis -> http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/icr-pr-jp09-11-june20101.pdf ( nach ganz unten scrollen das viele rote =D )
WCJ = World Cup Jumping
WSC = World Ski Championchips
SFWC = Ski Flying World Cup
OWG = Olympic World Games
Das Wort COC taucht definitiv nicht auf!
Haha der Wettkampf in Oslo war ungültig
Ne aber im Ernst, kann man ne Ausnhamegenehmigung von der Fisregel bekommen???
Dürfte eigentlich nicht gehen?
Jetzt fang ich an mich zu wundern...
Oder haben die es nur im Training ausprobiert und im Liveticker stands zwar noch oben wurde aber nicht benutzt?
Hat das jemand geguckt und weiß ob gates während des wettkampfs gewechsel wurden?
Zumindest laut den Regeln der Fis -> http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/icr-pr-jp09-11-june20101.pdf ( nach ganz unten scrollen das viele rote =D )
WCJ = World Cup Jumping
WSC = World Ski Championchips
SFWC = Ski Flying World Cup
OWG = Olympic World Games
Das Wort COC taucht definitiv nicht auf!
Haha der Wettkampf in Oslo war ungültig
Ne aber im Ernst, kann man ne Ausnhamegenehmigung von der Fisregel bekommen???
Dürfte eigentlich nicht gehen?
Jetzt fang ich an mich zu wundern...
Oder haben die es nur im Training ausprobiert und im Liveticker stands zwar noch oben wurde aber nicht benutzt?
Hat das jemand geguckt und weiß ob gates während des wettkampfs gewechsel wurden?
danii85
linker Spinner
Ich kramsche den Thread mal wieder raus, weil ich denke das Statement passt ganz gut hier her:
Danke, Matti. :up:
Ueberschrift: Der Fehler im System
Danke, Matti. :up:
blackswan
Warrior of Kindness
Matti meint auch, dass meistens, vollkommen falsche Werte auftauchen, die mit de tatsächlichen Wind nicht mal annähernd übereinstimmen!!
EyTschej
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Ich wiederhole mich zum x-ten Male: Den tatsächlichen Windeinfluss auf den Springer könnte man sowieso nur direkt am Springer messen. Daher ist es sogar gut, dass diese Windpunkte nicht allzu hoch ausfallen, weil das sonst nur zusätzlich zum Wettbewerbsverzerr beitragen würde. Gateregel topp, Windregel flopp.
MK23 - skiimport
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After third round, Poland were ahead of Slovenia by 0.4 points.
Now, after Kranjec jumped 136m with '0.59' frontwind, Malysz had to jump 143m with telemark (or 146m without it), because 'he had 2.06' frontwind, so Poland would still be ahead of Slovenia and have a chance of a bronze medal....and that was 99.99% impossible...
Now, after Kranjec jumped 136m with '0.59' frontwind, Malysz had to jump 143m with telemark (or 146m without it), because 'he had 2.06' frontwind, so Poland would still be ahead of Slovenia and have a chance of a bronze medal....and that was 99.99% impossible...
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After third round, Poland were ahead of Slovenia by 0.4 points.
Now, after Kranjec jumped 136m with '0.59' frontwind, Malysz had to jump 143m with telemark (or 146m without it), because 'he had 2.06' frontwind, so Poland would still be ahead of Slovenia and have a chance of a bronze medal....and that was 99.99% impossible...
you can stop arguing against the new rules. people prefer make-believe fairness more than they like transparency...
it's depressing
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MK23 - skiimport
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:up:
(P.S. - It would be great if instead of Malysz,Ahonen,Uhrmann etc. Hofer and Tepeš would end careers after this season
)