🇳🇱 Team Niederlande

[Hillsize]

Englisch ist okay hier.

Wendy und Lara for Olympia: http://www.facebook.com/groups/Lara.Wendy/

 

[heywoodu]

In another thread someone posted that Lars Antonissen had qualified for the WM in Italy, because of his 29th place in Zakopane last weekend.
I sent an e-mail to the Dutch Ski Association about it, and this is their answer:

Dear heywoodu

Lars Antonissen qualified for the JWM, not for the WM!
Unfortunately we have two Startplätze there, and three jumpers qualified for the event.
Next weekend we will decide who goes to the JWM.

So if I am right (well actually if they are), he didn't qualify for the World Championships ;(

 

[Kirsten]

Er ist qualifiziert. Die Voraussetzung, um an der WM teilzunehmen ist ein WC Punkt oder ein COC-Punkt aus der aktuellen oder der vergangenen Saison. Und mit seinem 29. Platz hat er diesen Punkt bekommen und ist rein theoretisch startberechtigt

 

[heywoodu]

Er ist qualifiziert. Die Voraussetzung, um an der WM teilzunehmen ist ein WC Punkt oder ein COC-Punkt aus der aktuellen oder der vergangenen Saison. Und mit seinem 29. Platz hat er diesen Punkt bekommen und ist rein theoretisch startberechtigt

Danke, ich sende einfach ein neuen Mail zur Verband :up:

Who knows, maybe they didn't know the rules and because of my mails Lars goes to the World Championships ffft:

 

[Kirsten]

Ski Jumping
ALL ATHLETES WHO QUALIFY FOR PARTICIPATION IN
FIS WORLD CUP AND SKI FLYING COMPETITIONS
WHO:
- have already gained WC points
- have gained at least one COC point in the past
or the current season.

http://www.fiemme2013.com/allegati/teams-invitation.pdf

 

[Jabbar993]

Maybe they have their own criteria, but I still think they should have 4 places for JWM?
But on WM, EVERYONE with valid FIS Code can start.

 

[Kirsten]

That's what I think, too. For JWM, every nation has 4 places...

And I checked the link above, and the criteria is only for getting an accomondation for free. So everyone with a fis liscence might start, that all the dutch jumpers can start at the wm

 

[heywoodu]

Thanks for your answers, maybe it is indeed about their criteria being very strict (like for the Olympics where top-8 in a World Cup competion is required). I sent them a mail for clarification, I will post their response here for those who are interested

 

[heywoodu]

http://www.nusport.nl/overig/3001085/skispringster-vuik-droomt-van-olympisch-podium.html

Jumping in the 2014 Olympics, and fight for the prizes there. For now it's a dream for the 23-year old Wendy Vuik, but one she is convinced she will be able to realize.

"My dream is to participate in the Games and then perform well there. Preferably on the podium, but anyway that's the entire goal with my qualification process, where I have to reach at least one top-8 finish in a World Cup."

Because of the general level in women's ski jumping, the demands for her (top-8 once) are higher than the Dutch snowboarders, for who two top-12 World Cup finishes are enough to qualify.

"If you reach the qualification norm you are already close to the podium, so anything can happen then. Still, I was surprised that they expect a top-8 from me, and only top-12 from others, I don't know why it's different for me. I talked about it with Wopde de Vegt (technical director of the Dutch "Skiverband"), but there is nothing we can do about it anymore. A shame, but now I will have to give it everything I've got."

"I have enough chances, we've still got a lot of competitions to go and I think I can do it. I'm in the top-20 most of the time now, I just have to place two great jumps right after eachother. There are many competitions where I jump good right now, but so far I fail a little bit in one of the two jumps."

"I know it will be hard to reach the Games and that the top-8 seems far away sometimes, but it can also be very close. I only have to reach the top-8 once, and for that I only need two very good jumps. I already showed those jumps for sure this season, just not two in the same competition yet.

The coming months it is all or nothing for Vuik. She doubts that, in case she misses Sochi, she will continue for the 2018 Games.
"I am getting to an age where I am really starting to think: By now I should really start to make the steps to a higher level."
"For now I will see what goes on and what happens and if I keep making progress like I'm doing now, qualification for 2018 shouldn't be a problem at all. However, I don't earn a single cent with my sport, and I don't have any sponsors at all. That makes everything pretty difficult."

And as you can see here, it's even on the front page of this site, and not on some place where you just find it when you look for wintersports news (because you'll barely find any ski jumping at all there, other than the Four Hills and World Championships and just sometimes a small article with the results of Vuik).
Good to see that there is some attention for the Dutch ski jumping, nothing compared to the other countries of course, but it's a start :up:

 

[heywoodu]

Thanks for your answers, maybe it is indeed about their criteria being very strict (like for the Olympics where top-8 in a World Cup competion is required). I sent them a mail for clarification, I will post their response here for those who are interested

I finally got a response, I will translate it here:

Dear heywoodu,

Without going to deep into the rules, the selection procedure is as follows:

We make qualifying limits/demands.
When those limits are reached by the athlete they will be submitted to the Topsport Commission of the Dutch Ski Association.
When the Topsport Commission agrees, the athlete can be sent to the competition.

At the JWC The Netherlands "only" had 2 places. Because 3 athletes reached the qualifying limit, we waited untill the very last moment with appointing the 2 athletes that would be sent to the JWC. For this decision, the trainers looked at who had the best shape at the moment and who had the most constant/stable results so far. On those criteria, Ruben and Oldrik were selected.

Only Wendy Vuik has qualified for the World Championships ski jumping. For the men we didn't make qualifying limits, because our expectation was that no male athlete would be able to reach these limits.

Which things made you come to the conclusion that Lars did indeed qualify for the World Championships?

Regards,
Dutch Ski Association

I hope this thing about the "limits" is clear. To give an example from another sport, a limit could be that an athlete has to run the 100 meters in less than 10.20 seconds to qualify, or jump higher than 2.20 meters to qualify in athletics. In the case of ski jumping, this limit would probably be something like reaching a certain classification in certain events.


Earlier in this thread Kirsten posted a link to the "Teams Invitation" for the WM, but I thought in another thread it was agreed that that list of demands (a point in World Cup or COC) was only to get free accomodation.

So the 2 things I am going to search for to answer the Assocation will be proof that Holland had 4 places there instead of 2 (as Kirsten told in post #167), and the proof/rule that basically tells that Lars is eligible to compete at the WM. If anyone could help me with that, I would really appreciate it. :up:


Sorry for all the troubles, but maybe this also gives a bit insight to all of you in how small this sport actually is in my country, I bet I am the first non-athlete to mail the association with questions about ski jumping :aetsch:

 

[Kirsten]

Also an der WM darf jedes Land mit 4 Springern starten, ohne irendwelche Bedingungen. Selbst wenn er einen COC Punkt braucht, den hat Lars ja. Ich schau mal, ob ich da was richtiges von der FIS finde.

edit: gefunden

ich hab die Quote für die JWM gefunden, da durften wirklich nur 2 Niederländer starten
http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/jwsc-quota-ski-jumping_14.01.2013-fis-21.pdf


Hier sind die regeln für eine Weltmeisterschaft in Englisch:
http://www.fis-ski.com/data/document/wsc-rules-2012-e_clean-version_291012.pdf

Unter Punkt 9 steht die maximale Anzahl an Athleten pro Sportart. Für 3 Sportarten gibts es Qualifikationsbestimmungen, für alle anderen (auch Skispringen) nicht. Somit darf auch die Niederlande 6 Springer schicken, und 4 dürfen im Wettkampf starten.
Und lars hätte eben sogar freie Unterkunft.


Das "Problem" ist nur, wenn der holländische Verband da interne Qualifikationen ansetzt, dann müssen die Jungs die auch erreichen.

 

[heywoodu]

Allright, so the matter of the JWM is solved and they were right, thank you!

I am now looking for proof that Lars actually is eligible to go compete at the World Championships, but so far the only thing I found is the same quote from the Team Invitation (so about the free accomodation)...


Oh I see you editted your post and already found it :up:

I think I will mail that document to them, because in my mail they wrote they didn't have "interne Qualifikationen", because they didn't expect anyone to reach that :hmpf:


Thanks again!

 

[Kirsten]

I guess the boys should habe the same qualification limits like the girls, so that means top 8 in the worldcup? Well this goal, the guys will never reach =S

 

[heywoodu]

I guess the boys should habe the same qualification limits like the girls, so that means top 8 in the worldcup? Well this goal, the guys will never reach =S

Top-8 in at least one World Cup competition is the limit for the Olympics

In their mail they told me that for the WM they didn't set qualification limits for the guys, so I will answer them that if they didn't set their own limits, it should mean that Lars can go to the WM..

 

[heywoodu]

Ok, there are internal limits, and Lars didn't even come close to them unfortunately.
The answer says that the association (just like all Dutch associations and the National Olympic Committee) wants to be in the best 10 countries in the world in all the sports, so they adapted the limits to this ambition.

These were the limits for the JWC:

For the World Championship, they only have limits for the women on their site, because it wasn't expected that there would be a male athlete reaching those same results. Now I can understand why, because these are the limits for the women to qualify for the WM this year:

A. One top-16 finish in a World Cup or GP competition OR one top-10 finish in the COC.
B. Twice a top-20 finish in a World Cup or GP competition and/or top-15 in COC.

If there would be limits for the men, these would probably be the same for them. So unfortunately, it will be very doubtfull if we will ever see Dutch jumpers at the World Championships, but who knows..



By the way, about the Olympics..if someone (well, it can just be Wendy I guess) reaches a top-8 in a World Cup this season, she has to finish in the top-15 at least once next season, to show that she is able to make a good performance again.
If she finishes in the top-8 in the World Championships this year, she will go to Sochi automatically.


I think everything is clear now, also for myself :zunge2:

 

[werderfan7]

Diese vom Verband festgesetzten Plätze sind doch eh Quatsch. Am Ende entscheidet eh der Trainer!

 

[heywoodu]

Diese vom Verband festgesetzten Plätze sind doch eh Quatsch. Am Ende entscheidet eh der Trainer!

But first the athlete has to qualify by reaching the limits set by the association...

I can understand their goal, and in the documents it also tells that they don't want athletes to go into competitions where they would probably finish in the worst 25% every time, because that would be bad for their confidence and development.
Besides, the goals in Holland has always been that they want to be in the best 10 nations, no matter if it's cycling, speed skating, judo or ski jumping.

On the other hand (and this is what I answered them), competing in a World Championships would give young athletes a huge amount of experience, which is especially usefull at the age of the Dutch jumpers at the moment.

 

[Baba1]

Diese vom Verband festgesetzten Plätze sind doch eh Quatsch. Am Ende entscheidet eh der Trainer!

also bei Swiss-Ski entscheiden die Trainer bezüglich Startplätzen an WM/Olympia überhaupt nichts. Wenn mehr qualifiziert sind als Startplätze zur Verfügung stehen werden die Trainer allenfalls um ihre Meinung gebeten. Wenn mehr Athleten nominiert sind entscheiden die Trainer über den Einsatz in den einzelnen Wettkämpfen. Es kann aber nur zwischen den Athleten entschieden werden die für diesen Wettkampf die Norm erfüllt haben.
Ich könnte mir vorstellen dass dies bei den Niederländern (und auch weiteren Nationen) ähnlich ist.

 

[werderfan7]

also bei Swiss-Ski entscheiden die Trainer bezüglich Startplätzen an WM/Olympia überhaupt nichts. Wenn mehr qualifiziert sind als Startplätze zur Verfügung stehen werden die Trainer allenfalls um ihre Meinung gebeten. Wenn mehr Athleten nominiert sind entscheiden die Trainer über den Einsatz in den einzelnen Wettkämpfen. Es kann aber nur zwischen den Athleten entschieden werden die für diesen Wettkampf die Norm erfüllt haben.
Ich könnte mir vorstellen dass dies bei den Niederländern (und auch weiteren Nationen) ähnlich ist.

Wer entscheidet das denn dann? Wie werden die Sportler ausgewählt, wenn sich zu viele qualifizieren?

 

[Baba1]

Wer entscheidet das denn dann? Wie werden die Sportler ausgewählt, wenn sich zu viele qualifizieren?

Die Auswahl wird durch eine Komission aus Sportfunktionären gemacht, und wenn zuviele die Norm erfüllt haben wird die aktuelle Form berücksichtigt oder es werden Ausscheidungen gesprungen / gefahren. Die kann vor der Nomination geschehen oder bei den Trainings, wobei es eine Maximal Anzahl Athleten gibt die ein Verband anmelden kann.