Damenskispringen allgemein

[Bench.]

Naja.. zum Punkt warum Damenskispringen nicht im TV übertragen wird, ist klar.. ist eben eine langweilige Sache-.. Wobei Curling ein ebenso großer Mist ist..

 

[Nadl]

Naja.. zum Punkt warum Damenskispringen nicht im TV übertragen wird, ist klar.. ist eben eine langweilige Sache-.. Wobei Curling ein ebenso großer Mist ist..

ich denke das ist ansichtssache... ich schau gerne damenspringen an und auhc gerne curling... vielleihct bin ich ein furchtbar langweiliger mensch

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Here, read what ms. Chika Yoshida has to say about the issue:
(remember, she is a FIS-coordinator for Ladies Skijumping)

http://ladies-skijumping.com/wiadomosci/88/Yoshida-We-still-are-in-a-developmental-phase/

This is a very healthy opinion about present state of ladies ski jumping, with clear plans for future of the discipline. And guess what, there is no mentioning of lawsuits, 'sexism', 'violation of basic human rights' and other absurd claims.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Hm, ist es sicher, dass die Damen nicht zumindest theoretisch bei den Männern teilnehmen dürften? Ich weiß zumindest, dass vor ein paar Jahren mal an einem Herren-COC auch ein paar Damen teilgenommen und sogar COC-Punkte geholt haben?

Aber natürlich ist das trotzdem kein Argument gegen eine Aufnahme des Damenspringens - schließlich gibt es ja auch bei fast allen anderen Sportarten Wettbewerbe, die nach Geschlechtern getrennt sind.

I am certain that Daniela Iraschko took part in Iron Mountain COC in 2002, and I am pretty sure that also recently some ladies took part in Men COC, but I don't remember exactly when or where.

Of course, Benjamin, like you said - this is not an argument against introducing female division in ski-jumping - but I got really annoyed with the following :

In all pamflets and brochures about how ladies should be included in Vancouver Olympics - it is always mentioned that actually a female athlete holds an absolute hill record in Whistler Mountain! But this is done with malicious intention to deceive ordinary people who have no connection with ski jumping, so they will logically conclude that it is really absurd not to include ladies also.

But if she was able to set absolute hill record - then she would have no problem to qualify for men team (especially since USA team is not really strong at the moment) :ueberleg:

 

[Bench.]

Wieso solltest du deshalb ein langweiliger Mensch sein? Ich schaue und mache total gerne Langlauf- viele sagen es wäre der langweiligste Sport überhaupt.. Nur das Damenskispringen.. da komm ich nicht ran. Selbst meine Schwiegermama hat es früher gemacht und war auch gut dabei- trotzdem..
Und ich versteh immer noch nicht, warum es so unglaublich schlimm ist, dass die Mädels 2010 noch nicht starten dürfen...:häh:

 

[Nadl]

ich hba ja shcon mehrfach erwähnt ich finde es nicht so wild ist zugegebenermaßen blöd für die die shcon was älter sind und vielelihct sotchi 2014 nimmer aktiv sind... mich stört am meißten die art und weiße wie von den verantwortlichen argumentiert wird das sie nicht starten sollen... ich war dieses jahr bei der junioren wm und hab mir den mädels bewerb angeschaut und muss sagen das es viel spannender war wie der junsg bewerb da dort ohnehin shcon müller als sieger gesetzt war udn es nur noch um die anderen medaillen ging...

 

[usskijumping]

kleiner Beitrag, auch wenn es mir gegen den Strich geht, welche Parolen hier abgegeben werden. Aber ich beschäftige mich ja mittlerweile sogar im Staatsexamen mit Emanzipation und den damit verbundenen Urängsten und der "Entmannung" des westlichen Mannes, da verwundert mich so langsam gar nichts mehr.....

-----------

On March 5, 2004 at Vikersund, all the maneuverings of the FIS to keep women from participating in a ski flying event came to a sudden end as Norway's Anette Sagen, ranked #1 in the world, flew 171 meters. This came after Lindsey Van of the US (ranked #2), hit 166 meters. Sweden's Helena Olsson added a 161, and Norway's Line Jahr landed at 133. The excitement over the four women participating on this historic day overshadowed the performance of another Norwegian, Olav Magne Doennem, who sailed 214 meters, breaking the old hill record of 207. Photos of Anette (L) and Lindsey (R) are from VG.

On Saturday, March 6, the women participated as forejumpers. It was the role for which the Norwegian Ski Association had initially invited six of the top women in the world. Sagen increased her personal best to 174.5, and Van flew 171.

Sunday's action saw Helena Olsson of Sweden fly 174.5 to match Sagen's longest, and Norway's Line Jahr finished up the weekend with a nice flight of 155 meters. Neither Sagen nor Van improved on their distances of Saturday. They were not in the competition, but were among the group of required forejumpers; this is what they'd been invited to do.

Had they been competing in Saturday's field of 50 men, Anette would have tied for 26th in the first round, and would have jumped in the second round of 30; Lindsey would have just missed the cut. Put another way, they would have beaten about of the 50 men in the field, having only two previous jumps as their total experience on a hill this size. Remember, unlike the men, they had no opportunity to practice prior to Friday! On Sunday, both Sagen and Olsson would have made the cut. Van and Jahr wouldn't have made the cut, but both would have been in the top 40.

(c) Ken Anderson, 2004

______________

Ich erinnere mich an die nervenaufreibende Tage VOR dem Event, als Larry Stone, damals als Coach mitgereist, sogar überlegte, Lindsey als Mann zu melden und sie notfalls irgendwie auf den Anlaufbalken zu schmuggeln... Und wie lange Gespräche mit und ohne Press geführt wurden, mit FIS-Vertretern, etc. ... und immer wieder deutlich wurde: Der einzige Grund, warum die Frauen nicht auf den Bakken gelassen werden sollte, war? Genau, richtig: Sie hatten keinen Penis.
Seit wann braucht man den zum Fliegen? Dient er bei den Männern als eine Art Steuerruder, hab ich da was verpasst?
Festzuhalten ist: Es sollten hier keine 12-jährigen springen, sondern alles erfahrene Athletinnen, die ihr bisheriges Leben auf den gleichen Schanzen verbracht hatten wie ihre männlichen Kollegen.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

And once again - you are wrong :

First of all - this is skiflying, not skijumping. There are no official ladies competition in Large Hills - let alone Ski Flying ones. Why don't you read what ms. Yoshida has to say??
You say they were forejumpers in Saturday / Sunday...from which gate they were starting?? Forejumpers usually start from higher inrun, and this can make huge difference...and also, which you obviously forgot to mention, this was not the World Cup, but the Continental Cup, with 50 second and third rate male jumpers. Yes, had Van and Saggen participated they would have probably beaten few of them, but this is more or less irrelevant. For ex., Sagen started in domestic competition in Norway just recently, and she finished around 30th position in a competition contested by only Norwegian jumpers!
Also, we had a competition on Normal Hill in Liberec WCH - and the spread between 1st and 30th was enormous - 143 points!! 30th jumper only had 100 points after two jumps, and ladies started from much higher gate than men and in more or less same weather conditions...and you are saying that there should be ski-flying competitions for ladies also?? Bizzarre :

Yes, there are few athletes that are highly trained, and this decision is probably hard for them. But there are only about 10 of them! If Ladies Ski Jumping was included in the Olympic Programme already - then we would have 100+ sports in the next winter olympics!

Again, please, just read what ms. Yoshida has to say. Is she also 'sexist'?

 

[usskijumping]

more or less same weather conditions? in Liberec? So have you actually been there on that day???????????
None of the male competitors would have ever been jumping under those circumstances... I was there and that competition was a joke, and men are using it for their discriminating purposes now. It just served them right.

But as I said, none of the things you're saying are valid to me, because you said yourself you care about womens ski jumping 0%... no clue then why you spent hours after hours here trying to convince people of how bad and boring and irrelevant women's ski jumping is? Weird.
Everything you say doesn't matter to me really, because I've met and talked to a lot of people like you over the past years, everwhere in the skijumping world, and I've finally given up on people like you. Just not worth the energy.

 

[Kaethe]

sabbelei! skispringen hat nur im männerbereich tradition!
wo sind denn die medien-, insbesondere fernsehberichte über frauenskispringen?
wo sind denn fünfstellige zuschauerzahlen bei veranstaltungen?
wer ist denn bitte schön (außer euch handverlesenen) in der lage, auch nur drei verschiedene frauenskispringer zu benennen?

frauenskispringen hat KEINE tradition und gehört nicht ins olympische programm!

außer emotionales kampfgeschrei gibt es kein argument dafür.


und was herr sprungbär als randsportart ansieht: das thema lautet "damenskispringen allgemein" nicht "sprungbärs ansichten über die welt". thema verfehlt! setzen, sechs!

Hmm, wie soll es denn Zuschauer geben, wenn es keine Übertragungen gibt. In Lillehammer waren beim Herren und beim Damencoc im Sommer gleich viele Zuschauer, nämlich nur eine Handvoll. :donk: Äppel (Weltcup) und Birnen (COC) kann man nicht vergleichen.

Und mal eine klitzekleine Gegenfrage: Wer von den normalen Zuschauer kann drei Skispringer nennen? Das kann der Durchschnittsyuschauer auch nicht.

Medienberichte gibt es genügend in den Printmedien und deren Onlineausgaben. Man muss sie nur auch finden wollen. Und ich glaube, an diesem Willen fehlt es einigen hier.

Und wo du von Tradition sprichst: Wieso ist Skispringen bei Damen plötzlich eine andere Sportart? Das ist bei anderen Sportarten auch nicht so.

Was daran so schlimm ist, bench? Es ist Diskriminierung und nichts anderes. Bei der Anerkennung durch das IOC finde ich einige Ungereimtheiten:
Erstens: Wieso ist Damenskispringen eine eigenständige Sportart, die ein reguläres Annahmeverfahren durchführen, während man bei anderen Sportarten, wie Frauenboxen für die olympischen Sommerspiele ein vereinfachtes Verfahren durchführt?
Wieso wird eine Sportart namens Skicross für Damen und Herren ins olympisch eingeführt, die noch weniger Aktive in beiden Geschlechtern zusammen hat als es weltweit skispringende Damen gibt?
Wäre alles das nicht könnte ich mit der Begründung, dass das Teilnehmerfeld noch zu klein ist, leben. Aber das ist gerade nicht der eigentliche Grund.
Beim Fliegen in Vikersund durften die Damen wie Anette Sagen, die das Alterskriterium erfüllen, nicht starten. Und das obwohl die betreffende Regel geschlechtsneutral gehalten ist.

Und abschliessen möchte ich mit folgenden Zitaten:

In detail the role of the IOC, according to the Olympic Charter, is:
(...) To encourage and support the promotion of women in sport at all levels and in all structures with a view to implementing the principle of equality of men and women; (...)

Quelle: http://www.olympic.org/en/content/The-IOC/The-IOC-Institution1/

5. Any form of discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion,
politics, gender or otherwise is incompatible with belonging to the Olympic Movement.

Quelle:Olympische Charter, zu finden http://www.olympic.org/Documents/olympic_charter_en.pdf

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

None of the male competitors would have ever been jumping under those circumstances...

Yes, the whole world is against you, and this is all just big conspiracy from FIS and IOC. 13 years old girls were allowed to jump that day, but they wouldn't allow guys like Okabe and Kasai jumping in the same conditions... You really expect people will believe this? :

no clue then why you spent hours after hours here trying to convince people of how bad and boring and irrelevant women's ski jumping is?

And where exactly did I say that women ski jumping is bad, boring and irrelevant? I simply said that it was not ready for Olympics yet. In future it would probably be, but right now - not. Seems to me that you really have problems reading, and this is what annoys me most ffft:

Everything you say doesn't matter to me really, because I've met and talked to a lot of people like you over the past years, everwhere in the skijumping world, and I've finally given up on people like you. Just not worth the energy.

And again, there is a conspiracy on a global level against women ski jumping : The race director of Ladies Continental Cup is saying that the sport is still very much in development phase and there are still to few competitors, but no, you know better...don't you think you are little bit paranoid? :

As I said, this is all just sad because it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with sex discrimination, and all this debates are an insult to real discrimination problems women experience in REAL LIFE. There are clear sporting facts and arguments against you, but no, if someone disagrees with you, he will be labeled as 'sexist', 'discriminator' and stuff like that. You need to learn to accept the facts from the other side.

And I still fail to see single valid sporting argument why ladies ski-jumping should be included in 2010 Olympics :

 

[Kaethe]

Maybe I can help with an argument: According to Ms. Yoshida: The Ladies are approximately 20 years behind the men, so why is the FIS or the IOC unable to give them competion and a team competion from a large hill according to the rules 20 years ago? These hills still exist in every World Championship and olympic Games because these are the small hills now. Here lies again a discrimination of the women because they do not get a broadcast and they do not get a chance to gain money from sponsors. Without sponsors, only a few girls will be able to take part in compition on a high level. The number of girls will not rise with this argumentation. This is a typical vicious circle for discrimination which can only be broken if the girls get advantages.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

I'm not exactly sure that you understood ms. Yoshida...if she said that ladies are currently 20 years behind the men, it doesn't neccessarily mean that they are currently in a position male ski jumping was in 1990. It rather means that in 20 years time from now, women will be on more or less competivity level as male ski jumpers.

And the problem about tv-transmitions probably lies in a fact that Ladies competitions are still organized by very small cities, like Ljubno, Nottoden, Toblach etc. and it would be really hard for them to insure everything neccessary for World Cup level competition - especially TV signal.

And I really do not understand this argument that if Ladies Ski Jumping would not be included in Vancouver 2010, the sport will die...I mean, any kind of international competitions only exists for 10 years!! There are so many sports that are not included in the Olympics, yet they survive on a high level, there are even FIS disciplines like Speed Skiing and Telemark that have been around much more than Ladies Ski Jumping - yet they don't have an Olympic status, etc. etc. If we allow Ladies to jump in Vancouver at this early stage of development - we would see 100+ new sports in London 2012 and Sotchi 2014.

This problem could easily be solved by making ladies ski jumping a demonstration sport in Vancouver. Yes, IOC doesn't organize demonstration events from 1996, but I'm pretty sure they would be open to make an exception here. But no, Women Ski Jumpers believe that they are too special - so they discarded this idea also :
Lindsey Van - " A demonstration sport is not good enough. Why would we be there just to just demonstrate when we're fully ready to be a medal sport"
They obviously believe they are more important for ex. than Taekwondoo, Freestyle Skiing or Beach Volleyball, who were all demonstration sports before being fully accepted by IOC.

You also talk about Team Competition - yet there were only 6 four-women teams last season in Liberec, and each of them had at least 1 little girl amongst them. Slovenia's team was consisted of 3 little girls born in 1994 and an experienced veteran born in 1991!
There would be big problems to even reach basic rule in Team competitions - that at least 8 teams need to participate to make an event official.

 

[Bench.]

Was daran so schlimm ist, bench? Es ist Diskriminierung und nichts anderes.

WOOOOO ist das denn bitte Diskriminierung???? :irre:

Ich hab niergends etwas gefunden, wo irgendwer von den offiziellen Personen von Diskriminierung redet- es sind immer nur die Meinungen von Außenstehenden. Mag sein, dass ich die falschen Seiten gelesen habe- vielleicht gibt's da noch andere, aber trotzdem..

Und warum sollen die Mädels gerade 2010 starten?? Dann starten sie eben erst in einigen Jahren.. Ich seh da kein Problem..

 

[usskijumping]

Danke Kaethe.

Ich klinke mich hier aus, habe keine Lust auf das Niveau a'la paranoid, du kannst nicht lesen, blablabla... habe die letzten Jahre miterlebt, habe diese Art von sinnlosen Diskussionen mit zu vielen Leuten geführt, die sich niemals konstruktiv damit auseinandersetzen werden. Ich lasse mich nicht provozieren und habe weder Zeit noch Energie für solche Ignoranten.

Als letztes noch was schönes zum Frauenboxen: Jaques Rogge war vor seiner IOC-Karriere Arzt bei einem internationalen Boxverband. Klar, dass er sich da äußerst erfreut über die Aufnahme des Frauenboxens in Olympische Programm zeigt und betont, wie toll es doch sei, dass die Gleichberechtigung von Frauen und Männern immer weiter voranschreitet. Und klar ist auch, wie die Damenskisprungwelt darauf reagiert hat...

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

If you want to live in your imaginary world with imaginary enemies and conspiracy theories all around you it is your choice. Nobody here is against women ski jumping, I am simply supporting IOC decision not to enter Ladies ski jumping for Vancouver 2010 because there are clear sporting arguments against it, and it is really sad and cheap that you try to sell this as an discrimination thing.
In future it will be probably Olympic sport, but it is still too early.

You didn't answer do you also consider ms. Yoshida 'sexist', because she is also saying that there are still to few women ski jumpers that are truly competitive? Of course you won't answer that question, then you would not be able to make all these absurd claims.

To conclude, if a 13 years old girl is able to finish 5th in the World in such a demanding sport like ski-jumping, it is a clear sign that the sport is still very much in development.
And Nadl, junior jumpers are not selected to participate because they are better than senior athletes, they are selected because there are no senior athletes. Only 11 in a very first World Championships!

And you 'usskijumping', have a nice life surrounded by paranoia. If you just look at the facts for a second, you will be able to understand why IOC has taken such a decision for this Olympics. But if you don't want - it is your problem.
See you in Vancouver! hew:

 

[usskijumping]

blabla

ein letztes kurzes comeback, das ich mir nicht verkneifen kann . Ich sag es ja, unterstes Niveau... wenn man in diesem Jahrhundert noch als paranoid bezeichnet wird, weil man Dinge hinterfragt und kritisiert, dann ist das echt schade.

Aber macht ruhig weiter so .

 

[Kaethe]

Okay, I try to explain my point again.

The sports that are olympic will be shown at television every fourth year. This means a huge media interest. That interest attracts sponsors. Even though the sponsors are not to be shown on the Athlete during the olympic competition, a lot of sponsors like it to advertise their products with an olympic medal winner. This chance is taken away from the ladies if they are not olympic. That is a discrimination.
The next thing is that there is not so much interest in supporting a non-olympic sport within normal business. Girls, who still go to school or ladies who are studying can profit from special programmes to be world class athletes. But that is over if they finish school or university. So the girls reach world class niveau quite early. But to hold that, they have to do an adequate training. That is usually not ensured if one has a normal job. This means the girls have to decide after school what they do. Those who reduce their training to do both cannot maintain world class niveau because the training is not adequate enough to hold that niveau. This weakens the niveau of the ladies competions. The other decision the ladies can take is to quit. That means the ladies lose good jumpers. How should the number of female skijumpers rise, if they have to quit? And how are they supposed to increase the number of world class jumpers if a certain number of them is forced to reduce the training in that way that it is not adequate for a world class athlete out of economic reasons? (This is called institutional discrimination, I think)

The only argumentation the ladies hear is, that they are to few. Maybe the FIS should change the argumentation. I can see your point about the team competition, but that is not what Ms. Yoshida said. I think the ladies will understand it, if someone explains them that 3 teams with world class athletes are not enough for a team competition because the rules require 8 teams.

I have got another question: Why is ladies skijumping a sport on its own? The girls use the identical hills, the identical techinique and the same equipment as men. Why is that a sport on its own and not Skijumping? That does not make a sense, especially because in wintersports men and women count for every sports as a group.

Bench, als Diskriminierender werde ich mein Handeln wohl kaum als Diskriminierung bezeichnen, insbesondere wenn dies im Widerspruch zu meiner offiziellen Politik steht. Und die Skispringerinnen, die ich für beteiligt halte, sehen das ganze als Diskrimnierung. Aber dazu müsste man vielleicht auch die Presseberichte lesen.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Kaethe, I see your point clearly, and this all is of course true, but like I said - with that argumentation, every single sport could ask to be included in Olympic games. There are 10000+ sports in the world, but only about 30 are included in Olympics. A certain level must be reached before a sport can be included in Olympics - I think this should be clear to all. And competitive Ladies Ski Jumping only exists for 10 years!

Also, IOC are trying to reduce the number of sports included in Olympic programme (they have recently thrown out Softball and Baseball from Summer Olympics) - so it would be even harder to enter olympic programme in the future. But women ski jumping is on the right track, and it will be 99% included in next winter olympics, if progress is mantained. But this behaviour from women ski jumpers is just bizzare. Sports like Karate are waiting patiently for ther approval for decades, and they never thought about going to civil court and suing the IOC.

About the ski cross - I am not glad to see those 'modern' sports in Olympics - but it is pretty clear why IOC decided to include them. They think they will be very exciting for younger, x-games generation - so IOC would be able to profit financially from them. So yes, in that case including such obscure sports like ski-cross is very unfair to women ski jumpers, but even this has NOTHING to do with discrimination - it is sadly about money and interests.

And it is also very wrong to compare raw numbers of competitors for ladies ski jumping and sports like bobsleigh, skeleton and luge, because there are only 15 active bobsleigh/luge/skeleton tracks in the whole world, while there are probably 1500 active ski jumping hills!

To conclude, nobody here has anything against women ski jumpers, but it was simply too early for them. And all of this is happening only because Games are organized in North America and USA girls are main favorites for medals, if they were organized for ex. in Pyoengchang, this issue would be solved long time ago.

(and Usskijumping, you are not paranoid because you are criticizing IOC and FIS, you are paranoid because you see things which simply don't exist and you don't want to accept simple facts. But that's your choice ffft

 

[Kaethe]

Kaethe, I see your point clearly, and this all is of course true, but like I said - with that argumentation, every single sport could ask to be included in Olympic games. There are 10000+ sports in the world, but only about 30 are included in Olympics. A certain level must be reached before a sport can be included in Olympics - I think this should be clear to all. And competitive Ladies Ski Jumping only exists for 10 years!

The competions are only there because the FIS did not want to organise official competition, because she neglected the existence of skijumping ladies or produced strange reasonings why ladies should not skijump.

Also, IOC are trying to reduce the number of sports included in Olympic programme (they have recently thrown out Softball and Baseball from Summer Olympics) - so it would be even harder to enter olympic programme in the future. But women ski jumping is on the right track, and it will be 99% included in next winter olympics, if progress is mantained. But this behaviour from women ski jumpers is just bizzare. Sports like Karate are waiting patiently for ther approval for decades, and they never thought about going to civil court and suing the IOC.

In Karate men and women are not olympic. In Skijumping the case is little bit different. Mens sports skijumping is olympic, womens sport skijumping is not olympic. That is not to understand and not to explain. Adequate examples would be synchronised swimming, because there boys are neglected access to compitions.

About the ski cross - I am not glad to see those 'modern' sports in Olympics - but it is pretty clear why IOC decided to include them. They think they will be very exciting for younger, x-games generation - so IOC would be able to profit financially from them. So yes, in that case including such obscure sports like ski-cross is very unfair to women ski jumpers, but even this has NOTHING to do with discrimination - it is sadly about money and interests.

This just hides discrimination and shows the real motivation of the IOC. The result is a discrimination because womens skijumping and mens skijumping is not treated alike. The question is just, if the reasoning can legitimate that discrimination. The application procedure as such is for the ladies very discriminating because they are treated as a seperate sports. Here lies a discrimination which is not to explain. That leads to a lack of reasoning.
Maybe it is time that the IOC stands to its real value: Money and forgets about its moral values. That would be honest. It is unfair because the result is a discrimination in skijumping for women.

And it is also very wrong to compare raw numbers of competitors for ladies ski jumping and sports like bobsleigh, skeleton and luge, because there are only 15 active bobsleigh/luge/skeleton tracks in the whole world, while there are probably 1500 active ski jumping hills!

Yes you are right. That is why the IOC counts men and women together in wintersports and why the numbers of participating athletes in wintersports is lower than in summer sports.

To conclude, nobody here has anything against women ski jumpers, but it was simply too early for them. And all of this is happening only because Games are organized in North America and USA girls are main favorites for medals, if they were organized for ex. in Pyoengchang, this issue would be solved long time ago.

That is because in Pyoengchang there is no law against discrimination.

You do not have anything against lady skijumping but some other comments from other persons pointed out otherwise.