Damenskispringen allgemein
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I don't know why do you find so strange that men and women ski jumping are treated differently. It is only logical that they are in very different phase of development, and there are examples like this in all sports. For ex. women football was only added in summer olympics in 1996! Women ski jumping as a competitive sport was born in this decade, while men have organized competitions even in 19th century, so there is no way you could compare these two sports.
To add ladies event ONLY because men event also exists would be very wrong in my opinion. Why don't add women nordic combined also?
This is another question. But do you really believe that there is some big conspiracy theory against women ski jumping behind this all? I really hope you don't.
Are you an expert in South Korean law? Isn't your statement also discriminating?
I'm pretty sure they have pretty good laws against discrimination, just I believe their court would discard these claims as absurd, because that is what they are. Civil courts should NEVER be used to make sporting decisions.
I have nothing against ladies ski jumping as a sport, but I really got annoyed by various comments and all absurd claims which can be found on the internet. And every time I tried to explain in the nice way that things are little bit different in reality, I got labeled as a 'sexist' and shit like that.
I do not see a conspiracy against ladies skijumping, I just see a discrimination, which some people call institutional discrimination.
And I do not think that different developments are sufficient enough to reason a different treatment in that way that the gender specific competitions are two complete different sports. The IOC considers in winter sports during the evaluation the number of male and female athletes together, at least this document says so: http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_669.pdf on page 7. And if this rule still apply the ladies in skijumping receive disadvantages to be treated as a different sport than the men. Actually you are the first person who is able to give me a reason for the treatment as a sport of its own.
Oh, I think I have mistaken South and North Korea with Pyongyang. I am sorry, but actually it seems that the ladies would have the same chances in South Korea according to this human rights report of the US State Department. If the girls would not have tried to get into the Olympics in South Korea I am not so sure about because there seems to be some amount of money behind the girls. I mean, they get some publicity as they work together with different sorts of media and publish their point very actively in some media. There seem to be in North America a certain support for the girls.
For nordic combined the same rules apply in my eyes but I think there are at least in German Zero Girls who are doing Nordic Combined.
You do not really think that sports stands above or outside law? All Sports Federation are private organisation based on civil law and therefore bound by civil law. I mean this is not a strange civil law we are talking about, it is a human right which is violated. And I think in case of human rights the sport has to comply with the law. If there is no way via arbitration, what is the normal way in sports, the normal legal instruments can be used. There is no legitimation that sports can take away the chance to defend ones human rights just because it is sports and conflict mediation is different than normal. A decision about a human rights violation is not a sportive decision because it does not affect the sport event as such. And, to be honest, some judgements were very good for the sports (ECJ Bosman judgement). The Judges are humans who are interested in sports as well, so I do not think they are so uneligible to decide about certain areas in sports.
And I personally think that an organisation like the IOC that officially supports women (since 2007, so a very long time ^^) in sports should avoid everything what looks like discrimination. In the case of ladies skijumping the IOC were not succesful with that.
I do not called you a sexist, I do not even think that because there is room to argue about wether there is adiscrimination or not. But some get blind if they think to sniff a discrimination. In this case all circumstances together result in a discrimination, not only one single thing. If the IOC would have argued strictly with the number of the girls on a certain niveau and according to its own rules, there is no problem to decide against a paricipation of ladies in 2010. But it does not do that. For example, the age limit argument is insofar problematic as an age limit according to the Olympic Charta (43., p. 83) rules in the case if there is an age limit by the Internation Federation of that sport. As there is no age limit for skijumping for men or women, it is not convincing to use that against the participation of ladies in the olympics.
And I do not think that different developments are sufficient enough to reason a different treatment in that way that the gender specific competitions are two complete different sports. The IOC considers in winter sports during the evaluation the number of male and female athletes together, at least this document says so: http://multimedia.olympic.org/pdf/en_report_669.pdf on page 7. And if this rule still apply the ladies in skijumping receive disadvantages to be treated as a different sport than the men. Actually you are the first person who is able to give me a reason for the treatment as a sport of its own.
Oh, I think I have mistaken South and North Korea with Pyongyang. I am sorry, but actually it seems that the ladies would have the same chances in South Korea according to this human rights report of the US State Department. If the girls would not have tried to get into the Olympics in South Korea I am not so sure about because there seems to be some amount of money behind the girls. I mean, they get some publicity as they work together with different sorts of media and publish their point very actively in some media. There seem to be in North America a certain support for the girls.
For nordic combined the same rules apply in my eyes but I think there are at least in German Zero Girls who are doing Nordic Combined.
You do not really think that sports stands above or outside law? All Sports Federation are private organisation based on civil law and therefore bound by civil law. I mean this is not a strange civil law we are talking about, it is a human right which is violated. And I think in case of human rights the sport has to comply with the law. If there is no way via arbitration, what is the normal way in sports, the normal legal instruments can be used. There is no legitimation that sports can take away the chance to defend ones human rights just because it is sports and conflict mediation is different than normal. A decision about a human rights violation is not a sportive decision because it does not affect the sport event as such. And, to be honest, some judgements were very good for the sports (ECJ Bosman judgement). The Judges are humans who are interested in sports as well, so I do not think they are so uneligible to decide about certain areas in sports.
And I personally think that an organisation like the IOC that officially supports women (since 2007, so a very long time ^^) in sports should avoid everything what looks like discrimination. In the case of ladies skijumping the IOC were not succesful with that.
I do not called you a sexist, I do not even think that because there is room to argue about wether there is adiscrimination or not. But some get blind if they think to sniff a discrimination. In this case all circumstances together result in a discrimination, not only one single thing. If the IOC would have argued strictly with the number of the girls on a certain niveau and according to its own rules, there is no problem to decide against a paricipation of ladies in 2010. But it does not do that. For example, the age limit argument is insofar problematic as an age limit according to the Olympic Charta (43., p. 83) rules in the case if there is an age limit by the Internation Federation of that sport. As there is no age limit for skijumping for men or women, it is not convincing to use that against the participation of ladies in the olympics.
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Nadl
rich bitch
so das ist das letzte was ich zum thema mädels und olympische spiele sagen werde: wir werden hier niemals auf einen gemeinsamen nenner kommen... beide parteien haben ihre fetsgefertigte meinung ob diese nun auf tatsachen beruht oder auf persönlichen emotionen sei dahingestellt... aber ein respektvoller umgang miteinander sieht anders aus... deshalb möchte ich mich von dieser ganzen diskussion nun fernhalten, und da ich hoffe und davon ausgehe das andere personen die hier ebenfalls mitkommentieren das gleiche verständnis davon haben wie man mit anderen menschen umgeht und deren persönlicher meinung hoffe ich das mehr von euch meinem beispiel folgen werden... wir können ja zum eigenlichen thema zurückkommen das ist damenskispringen... wenn ihr euhc gegenseitig die köpfe einhauen wollt dann macht das doch in einem thread: wir hauen uns wegen der nichtzulassung der damen zu den olympischen spielen in vancouver die köpfe ein.... ich bin aus dem thema auf alle fälle raus... ich denke es gibt sinnvollere dinge zu besprechen bei denen wir uns nicht im kreis drehen...
btw, what is Stammtisch-Niveau in English? 
Der Grund, warum ich hier so selten reinschaue, ist nicht, dass ich mich nicht für das Damenspringen interessiere, sondern so bornierte Diskussionen wie diese hier. Aber ich hab generell so ein bisschen meine Probleme mit Menschen, die nur schwarz-weiss denken können.
Insofern würde es mich freuen, wenn wir uns wieder positiveren Themen zuwenden könnten? Die nächste Saison steht ins Haus und die besteht ja nun nicht nur aus Olympia...
Der Grund, warum ich hier so selten reinschaue, ist nicht, dass ich mich nicht für das Damenspringen interessiere, sondern so bornierte Diskussionen wie diese hier. Aber ich hab generell so ein bisschen meine Probleme mit Menschen, die nur schwarz-weiss denken können.
Insofern würde es mich freuen, wenn wir uns wieder positiveren Themen zuwenden könnten?
Die nächste Saison steht ins Haus und die besteht ja nun nicht nur aus Olympia...MK23 - skiimport
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Men and ladies ski jumping is the same sport basically, but those two are in VERY different phase of development. I really don't understand why is this so difficult to understand. The same goes to football - 99% of football fans could not care less for women football - but it is still same sport essentially. The same thing would be if women were suing UEFA in for ex. 2005. because there was no Ladies Champions League then.
High sporting organizations like IOC, FIFA, UEFA, FIS should have an autonomy from civil law in their decisions, because otherwise sport would loose any sense. For ex., imagine Ireland going to court because they were recently robbed of victory against France in football!
So to conclude, you believe that there should be ladies competition ONLY because there is a men competition also, number of competitors and their age is more or less irrelevant to you. Ok, that is your opinion, I respect that - but I strongly disagree with it. Luckily, IOC agrees with me
And for Nadl, Senryu and probably many others : I thought this was a discussion forum. If you want to ban me because I'm writing in English and not in German, that's ok. But if you want me to stop writing these things only because you don't want to hear them and you want to read only about 'nice and pretty stuff' on this forum - then you have a problem. Because certianly I wasn't offtopic, I wanted to have serious discussion. But no, if I wrote that I find Anette Sagen sexy or shit like that, then I would be warmly accepted by all of you
ffft:
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Nadl
rich bitch
Julia Kykkänen macht morgen ihren ersten sprung nach der schweren verletzung... daumen drücken
Pippilotta
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Norges-Cup
Lillehammer, 28.11.2009
K NC Elite
1. Line Jahr, Vikersund IF; 124 und 121,5 m; 216,1
2. Helena Olsson Smeby, Byåsen IL Trønderhopp; 108,5 und 121 m; 180,3
3. Silje Sprakehaug, Vikersund IF Flying Team Vikersund; 106 und 98 m; 140,9
M NC A
8. Anette Sagen, Remma IL Flying Team Vikersund; 130,5 und 126 m; 215,9
Lillehammer, 28.11.2009
K NC Elite
1. Line Jahr, Vikersund IF; 124 und 121,5 m; 216,1
2. Helena Olsson Smeby, Byåsen IL Trønderhopp; 108,5 und 121 m; 180,3
3. Silje Sprakehaug, Vikersund IF Flying Team Vikersund; 106 und 98 m; 140,9
M NC A
8. Anette Sagen, Remma IL Flying Team Vikersund; 130,5 und 126 m; 215,9
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Pippilotta
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Norges-Cup
Lillehammer, 29.11.2009
K NC Elite
1. Line Jahr, Vikersund IF Lillehammerhopp; 122 und 129 m; 233,5
2. Helena Olsson Smeby; Byåsen IL Trønderhopp; 116,5 und 112 m; 178,0
3. Silje Sprakehaug, Vikersund IF Flying Team Vikersund; 94 und 107 m; 135,5
M NC A
2. Anette Sagen, Remma IL Fying Team Vikersund; 132 und 132 m; 251,4
Lillehammer, 29.11.2009
K NC Elite
1. Line Jahr, Vikersund IF Lillehammerhopp; 122 und 129 m; 233,5
2. Helena Olsson Smeby; Byåsen IL Trønderhopp; 116,5 und 112 m; 178,0
3. Silje Sprakehaug, Vikersund IF Flying Team Vikersund; 94 und 107 m; 135,5
M NC A
2. Anette Sagen, Remma IL Fying Team Vikersund; 132 und 132 m; 251,4
Pippilotta
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Lesetipp:
http://www.theskichannel.com/news/s...nadian-Supreme-Court-for-permission-to-appeal
Lindsey Van & women ski jumpers ask Canadian Supreme Court for permission to appeal
The long battle between women ski jumpers and the IOC is not over yet. But, it's coming to the end of the road: the Supreme Court of Canada. It was announced today by Ross Clark, the ladies' lawyer, that the women will apply to the Supreme Court of Canada for permission to appeal the decisions of the lower courts.
“We believe our argument has been misunderstood and that a matter of national importance is at stake,” Clark explained. “This case isn’t just about women ski jumpers. It is about the interpretation and application of the Charter and whether the Vancouver Olympic Organizing Committee, in carrying out an ascribed activity of government, can be forced by a foreign entity to put a discriminatory decision into effect in Canada.
...
http://www.theskichannel.com/news/s...nadian-Supreme-Court-for-permission-to-appeal
Lindsey Van & women ski jumpers ask Canadian Supreme Court for permission to appeal
The long battle between women ski jumpers and the IOC is not over yet. But, it's coming to the end of the road: the Supreme Court of Canada. It was announced today by Ross Clark, the ladies' lawyer, that the women will apply to the Supreme Court of Canada for permission to appeal the decisions of the lower courts.
“We believe our argument has been misunderstood and that a matter of national importance is at stake,” Clark explained. “This case isn’t just about women ski jumpers. It is about the interpretation and application of the Charter and whether the Vancouver Olympic Organizing Committee, in carrying out an ascribed activity of government, can be forced by a foreign entity to put a discriminatory decision into effect in Canada.
...
Pippilotta
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http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Olympics/2010Vancouver/News/2009/12/01/11996166-sun.html
Ski jumpers not giving up
Onward to Supreme Court of Canada
By BOB MACKIN, SUN MEDIA
VANCOUVER -- Women hoping to ski jump at the 2010 Winter Olympics are going the distance.
Sun Media has learned that lawyers for 13 female ski jumpers will ask the Supreme Court of Canada on Tuesday afternoon for leave to appeal a Nov. 13 decision by the British Columbia Court of Appeal.
Ski jumpers not giving up
Onward to Supreme Court of Canada
By BOB MACKIN, SUN MEDIA
VANCOUVER -- Women hoping to ski jump at the 2010 Winter Olympics are going the distance.
Sun Media has learned that lawyers for 13 female ski jumpers will ask the Supreme Court of Canada on Tuesday afternoon for leave to appeal a Nov. 13 decision by the British Columbia Court of Appeal.
usskijumping
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Ich frage mich übrigens gerade warum im März in Oslo bei der Trial WM kein Damen-Wettbewerb stattfindet? Gibt's da ne Begründung? Hillsize, irgendwas?
Pippilotta
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Female ski jumpers make pitch to top court
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mpers-make-pitch-to-top-court/article1385098/
A group of feisty women ski jumpers has taken on the most uphill task yet in its long, high-profile quest to participate in the 2010 Winter Olympics.
With the Games less than 2½ months away, the women asked the Supreme Court of Canada yesterday to hear their last-ditch appeal against previous court judgments keeping them out of the Olympics and to issue a ruling within the next six weeks.
...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mpers-make-pitch-to-top-court/article1385098/
A group of feisty women ski jumpers has taken on the most uphill task yet in its long, high-profile quest to participate in the 2010 Winter Olympics.
With the Games less than 2½ months away, the women asked the Supreme Court of Canada yesterday to hear their last-ditch appeal against previous court judgments keeping them out of the Olympics and to issue a ruling within the next six weeks.
...
Pippilotta
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Keine Ahnung, hab ich mich auch schon gefragt...
Gute Frage, ich weiß jetzt nicht, ob der Midstubakken rechtzeitig zur Probewm fertig wird. Der Turm ist nämlich noch nicht zu sehen. Und da schreiben sie darüber, dass der Bau sich verzögern kann.
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Pippilotta
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Rovaniemi, 07.12.2009
Training
1. Durchgang
Gate 10
1. Anette Sagen, NOR; 93 m
2. Line Jahr, NOR; 90,5 m
3. Melanie Faißt, GER; 89,5 m
4. Ayumi Watase, JAP; 88,5 m
5. Eva Logar, SLO; 88 m
6. Jessica Jerome, USA; 86 m
7. Evelyn Insam, ITA; 85,5 m
7. Bigna Windmüller, SUI; 85,5 m
9. Michaela Dolezelova, CZE; 85 m
9. Sara Takanashi, JAP; 85 m
2. Durchgang
Gate 11
1. Anette Sagen, NOR; 97 m
2. Ayumi Watase, JAP; 93 m
2. Ulrike Gräßler, GER; 93 m
4. Daniela Iraschko, AUT; 92 m
4. Line Jahr, NOR; 92 m
6. Jessica Jerome, USA; 90 m
7. Melanie Faißt, GER; 89,5 m
8. Lisa Demetz, ITA; 88 m
8. Eva Logar, ITA; 88 m
10. Michaela Dolezelova, CZE; 87 m
Training
1. Durchgang
Gate 10
1. Anette Sagen, NOR; 93 m
2. Line Jahr, NOR; 90,5 m
3. Melanie Faißt, GER; 89,5 m
4. Ayumi Watase, JAP; 88,5 m
5. Eva Logar, SLO; 88 m
6. Jessica Jerome, USA; 86 m
7. Evelyn Insam, ITA; 85,5 m
7. Bigna Windmüller, SUI; 85,5 m
9. Michaela Dolezelova, CZE; 85 m
9. Sara Takanashi, JAP; 85 m
2. Durchgang
Gate 11
1. Anette Sagen, NOR; 97 m
2. Ayumi Watase, JAP; 93 m
2. Ulrike Gräßler, GER; 93 m
4. Daniela Iraschko, AUT; 92 m
4. Line Jahr, NOR; 92 m
6. Jessica Jerome, USA; 90 m
7. Melanie Faißt, GER; 89,5 m
8. Lisa Demetz, ITA; 88 m
8. Eva Logar, ITA; 88 m
10. Michaela Dolezelova, CZE; 87 m
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Fr. Smilla
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Die nette Anette :up:
Pippilotta
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Rovaniemi, 08.12.2009
1. SAGEN, Anette 95.0 124.0 93.5 120.5 244.5
2. GRAESSLER, Ulrike 98.5 123.5 94.0 117.5 241.0
3. JAHR, Line 91.0 114.5 87.0 107.0 221.5
4. LOGAR, Eva 88.0 107.0 90.0 110.5 217.5
5. INSAM, Evelyn 90.0 109.5 87.5 106.0 215.5
6. HENDRICKSON, Sarah 88.5 110.0 86.0 105.0 215.0
7. TAKANASHI, Sara 87.5 104.0 88.5 108.0 212.0
8. ITOH, Yuuki 90.0 114.0 83.0 97.0 211.0
8. MOHR, Jenna 86.0 103.5 87.5 107.5 211.0
10 SEIFRIEDSBERGER, Jacqueline 82.5 96.0 90.5 114.0 210.0
1. SAGEN, Anette 95.0 124.0 93.5 120.5 244.5
2. GRAESSLER, Ulrike 98.5 123.5 94.0 117.5 241.0
3. JAHR, Line 91.0 114.5 87.0 107.0 221.5
4. LOGAR, Eva 88.0 107.0 90.0 110.5 217.5
5. INSAM, Evelyn 90.0 109.5 87.5 106.0 215.5
6. HENDRICKSON, Sarah 88.5 110.0 86.0 105.0 215.0
7. TAKANASHI, Sara 87.5 104.0 88.5 108.0 212.0
8. ITOH, Yuuki 90.0 114.0 83.0 97.0 211.0
8. MOHR, Jenna 86.0 103.5 87.5 107.5 211.0
10 SEIFRIEDSBERGER, Jacqueline 82.5 96.0 90.5 114.0 210.0
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Nadl
rich bitch
wow in italien tut sich was... fettes lob an fabi