M
Mike_Tyson
Guest
@ Franz
Hab ich mir auch gedacht...
Hab ich mir auch gedacht...
Der GROSSE Vitali Klitschko-Thread
- Ersteller Chandler
- Erstellt am
Wild-Stallion
Banned
- Beiträge
- 610
- Punkte
- 0
Ich meinte wenn er WBC-Weltmeister wird.
apropos wbc:irgendwer scheint hier zicken zu machen!
Klitschko-Sanders in trouble?
Negotiations between the camps of Vitali Klitschko and Corrie Sanders for the WBC heavyweight championship in the U.S. on April 24 are apparently stagnating. WBA interim champ John Ruiz is now being considered as an alternate opponent for Vitali. "John Ruiz is the second option, if the Sanders' fight does not materialize," said Universum CEO Peter Kohl. "Ruiz is an attractive fighter, and he's willing." The Ruiz camp has signaled their willingness to negotiate a fight against Vitali for April 24 in the U.S. Vitali is also the top-ranked heavyweight contender in the WBA. Universum Box-Promotion is puzzled about the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali."
Thursday, February 19 2004
--------------
ich hätte nix dagegen.vitali soll sich mit dem rahmanbezwinger john ruiz messen.
dann könnte sich wladimir vielleicht in einem 2.ten anlauf direkt selbst um sanders kümmern.
Klitschko-Sanders in trouble?
Negotiations between the camps of Vitali Klitschko and Corrie Sanders for the WBC heavyweight championship in the U.S. on April 24 are apparently stagnating. WBA interim champ John Ruiz is now being considered as an alternate opponent for Vitali. "John Ruiz is the second option, if the Sanders' fight does not materialize," said Universum CEO Peter Kohl. "Ruiz is an attractive fighter, and he's willing." The Ruiz camp has signaled their willingness to negotiate a fight against Vitali for April 24 in the U.S. Vitali is also the top-ranked heavyweight contender in the WBA. Universum Box-Promotion is puzzled about the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali."
Thursday, February 19 2004
--------------
ich hätte nix dagegen.vitali soll sich mit dem rahmanbezwinger john ruiz messen.
dann könnte sich wladimir vielleicht in einem 2.ten anlauf direkt selbst um sanders kümmern.
martin knoepfel
Nachwuchsspieler
von der rangliste her gibts aber keine sportliche alternative zu vitali-sanders.
wenn der sieger dieses kampfes ruiz als exhibition boxen will, wohlan.
ich fürchte, kpk glaubt nicht an einen sieg von vitali und will ihn so vor sanders retten. aber das ist zugegeben nur eine vermutung. am liebsten wäre mir schon, der kampf vitali-sanders kommt zustande und wir kriegen ihn in europa auch zu sehen.
wenn der sieger dieses kampfes ruiz als exhibition boxen will, wohlan.
ich fürchte, kpk glaubt nicht an einen sieg von vitali und will ihn so vor sanders retten. aber das ist zugegeben nur eine vermutung. am liebsten wäre mir schon, der kampf vitali-sanders kommt zustande und wir kriegen ihn in europa auch zu sehen.
Gladiator
Banned
Hier etwas zur Abwechselung:
Vitalis erster Kampf:
Vitalis erster Kampf:
Totto
Zitat: Wer will schon Ruiz sehen ?!?
Kann sein, dass das Geplänkel nur Sanders' Gehaltsvorstellungen drücken soll.
Habe ich mir auch gedacht, trotzdem habe ich es mir nicht verkneifen können auf den Spinatus prophylaktisch etwas loszuprügeln, verdient hat er es allemal!!
Sollte sich aber Vitali nach seinem Bruder auch noch vor Sanders abseilen, dann kann man beide ohne beleidigend zu werden getrost als die beiden größten Assholes der jüngeren Boxgeschichte einstufen.
Franz
Zitat: Wer will schon Ruiz sehen ?!?
Kann sein, dass das Geplänkel nur Sanders' Gehaltsvorstellungen drücken soll.
Habe ich mir auch gedacht, trotzdem habe ich es mir nicht verkneifen können auf den Spinatus prophylaktisch etwas loszuprügeln, verdient hat er es allemal!!
Sollte sich aber Vitali nach seinem Bruder auch noch vor Sanders abseilen, dann kann man beide ohne beleidigend zu werden getrost als die beiden größten Assholes der jüngeren Boxgeschichte einstufen.
Franz
------------------------Original geschrieben von Franz
Totto
Zitat: Wer will schon Ruiz sehen ?!?
Kann sein, dass das Geplänkel nur Sanders' Gehaltsvorstellungen drücken soll.
Habe ich mir auch gedacht, trotzdem habe ich es mir nicht verkneifen können auf den Spinatus prophylaktisch etwas loszuprügeln, verdient hat er es allemal!!
Sollte sich aber Vitali nach seinem Bruder auch noch vor Sanders abseilen, dann kann man beide ohne beleidigend zu werden getrost als die beiden größten Assholes der jüngeren Boxgeschichte einstufen.
Franz
@ franz
das dürfte echt nicht passieren.meine hoffnung geht dahin das vitali ev. ruiz annimmt,damit wladi in weiterer folge dieses jahr sanders selbst vor die fäuste nimmt und sich benimmt wie ein mann.
stell dir echt vor vitali würde gg sanders auch verlieren,was kommt dann?the revenge of the father?oberst klitschko fordert sanders zu einer golfpartie heraus oder so.nein bitte nicht.
einer der beiden muss den kiberer nochmal stellen sonst hast du mit der beurteilung recht(immerhin sind sie nicht so alt wie LL und können sich vor einem rematch nicht einfach durch pensionierung drücken!
!)chandler
Doch - durch Sanders' Pensionierung
Womit ich mal auf die Tatsache hinweisen will, dass sich die Sanders-Sache auch aussitzen läßt.
"Wir können jedes Problem ignorieren, wenn wir uns nur genug Mühe geben"
(Zitat aus dem Film "King Ralph")
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Gladiator
Banned
Quelle: http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2004/02/22/sport/boxing/boxing01.asp
Sunday 22 Feb 2004
Klitschko camp bait Corrie
Threats to walk away and seek another belt because Sanders 'doesn't want to fight'
Accusing Corrie Sanders of stalling talks, the Vitali Klitschko camp is threatening to walk away from their scheduled WBC title bout and fight for the WBA belt instead.
You can bet your house the argument is over money. Again.
Sanders's manager Vernon Smith has been at loggerheads with Universum Box Promotion, fronted by German Peter Kohl, since March last year when the South African knocked out Klitschko's brother, Wladimir.
Universum became Sanders's promoter through a pre-fight agreement, that stipulated "slave-wage" purses. Sanders and Smith have tried unsuccessfully to get out of the contract.
But the scheduled Vitali-Sanders bout gives the South Africans a chance to pull one back.
Representatives of the two boxers have until next Monday to strike a deal or the fight goes to a purse bid - an open auction where promoters make one-off offers to stage the bout.
Promotional contracts fall by the way in the event of purse bids. In the case of Klitschko-Sanders, it is estimated the winning bid will be no less than $8-million, which gets split 50-50 between the two fighters.
Smith did not disclose what was happening in the talks, but said: "It's tough as can be."
Universum spokesman Christoph Rybarczyk thinks differently. "It seems Corrie doesn't want to fight," he told the Sunday Times, adding that WBA champion John Ruiz had agreed to fight Vitali. Vitali is the top contender for the WBC and WBA belts.
But Universum's theory that Sanders does not want to fight makes absolutely no sense.
Sanders, who is seeking a big payday, ditched his WBO title for the WBC's No 2 ranking. This is the fight he wants. The purse bid, furthermore, means that Sanders-Klitschko is fait accompli.
Should either boxer pull out he would simply be replaced by the next highest available contender.
It seems the Germans don't want a purse bid, where they will probably compete against the likes of Don King and Bob Arum.
Johannesburg-based Golden Gloves this week said they too would make a substantial offer.
An industry insider believes Universum's threat is empty. "They're trying to bully Corrie."
But maybe the Germans think they can yet control three major versions of the world heavyweight title if Vitali wins the WBA belt, Sanders the WBC crown and Wladimir the vacant WBO title.
After the purse bid, Universum's contract with Sanders would kick in again and then they may find it easier to manipulate a Sanders-Klitschko bout at a cheaper price.
A complicating factor, however, is that their relationship with the Klitschko brothers has soured. Vitali is rumoured to be with new management in the US. Perhaps a firm grip on the heavyweight division would give them more leverage.
If they do walk away, it has to be with a good back-up plan - the WBC is the most prestigious of the world sanctioning bodies. And its heavyweight title, declared vacant after Lennox Lewis retired earlier this month, will give the new holder the claim to being the linear champion.
Fightnews.com quoted Universum saying they were puzzled by the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali".
It's not puzzling. It's business.
ACCUSING Corrie Sanders of stalling talks, the Vitali Klitschko camp is threatening to walk away from their scheduled WBC title bout and fight for the WBA belt instead.
You can bet your house the argument is over money. Again.
Sanders's manager Vernon Smith has been at loggerheads with Universum Box Promotion, fronted by German Peter Kohl, since March last year when the South African knocked out Klitschko's brother, Wladimir.
Universum became Sanders's promoter through a pre-fight agreement, that stipulated "slave-wage" purses. Sanders and Smith have tried unsuccessfully to get out of the contract.
But the scheduled Vitali-Sanders bout gives the South Africans a chance to pull one back.
Representatives of the two boxers have until next Monday to strike a deal or the fight goes to a purse bid - an open auction where promoters make one-off offers to stage the bout.
Promotional contracts fall by the way in the event of purse bids. In the case of Klitschko-Sanders, it is estimated the winning bid will be no less than $8-million, which gets split 50-50 between the two fighters.
Smith did not disclose what was happening in the talks, but said: "It's tough as can be."
Universum spokesman Christoph Rybarczyk thinks differently. "It seems Corrie doesn't want to fight," he told the Sunday Times, adding that WBA champion John Ruiz had agreed to fight Vitali. Vitali is the top contender for the WBC and WBA belts.
But Universum's theory that Sanders does not want to fight makes absolutely no sense.
Sanders, who is seeking a big payday, ditched his WBO title for the WBC's No 2 ranking. This is the fight he wants. The purse bid, furthermore, means that Sanders-Klitschko is fait accompli.
Should either boxer pull out he would simply be replaced by the next highest available contender.
It seems the Germans don't want a purse bid, where they will probably compete against the likes of Don King and Bob Arum.
Johannesburg-based Golden Gloves this week said they too would make a substantial offer.
An industry insider believes Universum's threat is empty. "They're trying to bully Corrie."
But maybe the Germans think they can yet control three major versions of the world heavyweight title if Vitali wins the WBA belt, Sanders the WBC crown and Wladimir the vacant WBO title.
After the purse bid, Universum's contract with Sanders would kick in again and then they may find it easier to manipulate a Sanders-Klitschko bout at a cheaper price.
A complicating factor, however, is that their relationship with the Klitschko brothers has soured. Vitali is rumoured to be with new management in the US. Perhaps a firm grip on the heavyweight division would give them more leverage.
If they do walk away, it has to be with a good back-up plan - the WBC is the most prestigious of the world sanctioning bodies. And its heavyweight title, declared vacant after Lennox Lewis retired earlier this month, will give the new holder the claim to being the linear champion.
Fightnews.com quoted Universum saying they were puzzled by the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali".
It's not puzzling. It's business.
Sunday 22 Feb 2004
Klitschko camp bait Corrie
Threats to walk away and seek another belt because Sanders 'doesn't want to fight'
Accusing Corrie Sanders of stalling talks, the Vitali Klitschko camp is threatening to walk away from their scheduled WBC title bout and fight for the WBA belt instead.
You can bet your house the argument is over money. Again.
Sanders's manager Vernon Smith has been at loggerheads with Universum Box Promotion, fronted by German Peter Kohl, since March last year when the South African knocked out Klitschko's brother, Wladimir.
Universum became Sanders's promoter through a pre-fight agreement, that stipulated "slave-wage" purses. Sanders and Smith have tried unsuccessfully to get out of the contract.
But the scheduled Vitali-Sanders bout gives the South Africans a chance to pull one back.
Representatives of the two boxers have until next Monday to strike a deal or the fight goes to a purse bid - an open auction where promoters make one-off offers to stage the bout.
Promotional contracts fall by the way in the event of purse bids. In the case of Klitschko-Sanders, it is estimated the winning bid will be no less than $8-million, which gets split 50-50 between the two fighters.
Smith did not disclose what was happening in the talks, but said: "It's tough as can be."
Universum spokesman Christoph Rybarczyk thinks differently. "It seems Corrie doesn't want to fight," he told the Sunday Times, adding that WBA champion John Ruiz had agreed to fight Vitali. Vitali is the top contender for the WBC and WBA belts.
But Universum's theory that Sanders does not want to fight makes absolutely no sense.
Sanders, who is seeking a big payday, ditched his WBO title for the WBC's No 2 ranking. This is the fight he wants. The purse bid, furthermore, means that Sanders-Klitschko is fait accompli.
Should either boxer pull out he would simply be replaced by the next highest available contender.
It seems the Germans don't want a purse bid, where they will probably compete against the likes of Don King and Bob Arum.
Johannesburg-based Golden Gloves this week said they too would make a substantial offer.
An industry insider believes Universum's threat is empty. "They're trying to bully Corrie."
But maybe the Germans think they can yet control three major versions of the world heavyweight title if Vitali wins the WBA belt, Sanders the WBC crown and Wladimir the vacant WBO title.
After the purse bid, Universum's contract with Sanders would kick in again and then they may find it easier to manipulate a Sanders-Klitschko bout at a cheaper price.
A complicating factor, however, is that their relationship with the Klitschko brothers has soured. Vitali is rumoured to be with new management in the US. Perhaps a firm grip on the heavyweight division would give them more leverage.
If they do walk away, it has to be with a good back-up plan - the WBC is the most prestigious of the world sanctioning bodies. And its heavyweight title, declared vacant after Lennox Lewis retired earlier this month, will give the new holder the claim to being the linear champion.
Fightnews.com quoted Universum saying they were puzzled by the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali".
It's not puzzling. It's business.
ACCUSING Corrie Sanders of stalling talks, the Vitali Klitschko camp is threatening to walk away from their scheduled WBC title bout and fight for the WBA belt instead.
You can bet your house the argument is over money. Again.
Sanders's manager Vernon Smith has been at loggerheads with Universum Box Promotion, fronted by German Peter Kohl, since March last year when the South African knocked out Klitschko's brother, Wladimir.
Universum became Sanders's promoter through a pre-fight agreement, that stipulated "slave-wage" purses. Sanders and Smith have tried unsuccessfully to get out of the contract.
But the scheduled Vitali-Sanders bout gives the South Africans a chance to pull one back.
Representatives of the two boxers have until next Monday to strike a deal or the fight goes to a purse bid - an open auction where promoters make one-off offers to stage the bout.
Promotional contracts fall by the way in the event of purse bids. In the case of Klitschko-Sanders, it is estimated the winning bid will be no less than $8-million, which gets split 50-50 between the two fighters.
Smith did not disclose what was happening in the talks, but said: "It's tough as can be."
Universum spokesman Christoph Rybarczyk thinks differently. "It seems Corrie doesn't want to fight," he told the Sunday Times, adding that WBA champion John Ruiz had agreed to fight Vitali. Vitali is the top contender for the WBC and WBA belts.
But Universum's theory that Sanders does not want to fight makes absolutely no sense.
Sanders, who is seeking a big payday, ditched his WBO title for the WBC's No 2 ranking. This is the fight he wants. The purse bid, furthermore, means that Sanders-Klitschko is fait accompli.
Should either boxer pull out he would simply be replaced by the next highest available contender.
It seems the Germans don't want a purse bid, where they will probably compete against the likes of Don King and Bob Arum.
Johannesburg-based Golden Gloves this week said they too would make a substantial offer.
An industry insider believes Universum's threat is empty. "They're trying to bully Corrie."
But maybe the Germans think they can yet control three major versions of the world heavyweight title if Vitali wins the WBA belt, Sanders the WBC crown and Wladimir the vacant WBO title.
After the purse bid, Universum's contract with Sanders would kick in again and then they may find it easier to manipulate a Sanders-Klitschko bout at a cheaper price.
A complicating factor, however, is that their relationship with the Klitschko brothers has soured. Vitali is rumoured to be with new management in the US. Perhaps a firm grip on the heavyweight division would give them more leverage.
If they do walk away, it has to be with a good back-up plan - the WBC is the most prestigious of the world sanctioning bodies. And its heavyweight title, declared vacant after Lennox Lewis retired earlier this month, will give the new holder the claim to being the linear champion.
Fightnews.com quoted Universum saying they were puzzled by the "shilly-shally and changeable behaviour Sanders displays concerning fighting Vitali".
It's not puzzling. It's business.
Ist aber eigentlich ein interessanter Gedanke: Vitali kämpft nicht gegen Sanders, sondern gegen Ruiz um die WBA-Krone. Gewinnt diese. Wladimir erobert die WBO-Krone zurück. Und Sanders gewinnt den WBC-Titel gegen wen auch immer .... 3 Heavyweight-Titel in UBP-Händen.
Und dann kommts zum Kampf Vitali (oder, noch interessanter) Wladimir gegen Sanders !!!
Gar nicht so blöd .... und bei alledem sind die Amis schön rausgehalten !!!!
Übrigens : In der NZZ am Sonntag (= Sonntags-Ausgabe der Neuen Zürcher Zeitung) steht heute, dass das Zürcher Hallenstadion als Austragungsort des Fights Klitschko-Sanders immer noch 50:50 im Rennen läge .....:confused:
bin ja gespannt .... (In der Schweiz müsse nur 10% Steuern abgegeben werden ... gegenüber 60% in BRD !)
by<e
tino
Und dann kommts zum Kampf Vitali (oder, noch interessanter) Wladimir gegen Sanders !!!
Gar nicht so blöd .... und bei alledem sind die Amis schön rausgehalten !!!!
Übrigens : In der NZZ am Sonntag (= Sonntags-Ausgabe der Neuen Zürcher Zeitung) steht heute, dass das Zürcher Hallenstadion als Austragungsort des Fights Klitschko-Sanders immer noch 50:50 im Rennen läge .....:confused:
bin ja gespannt .... (In der Schweiz müsse nur 10% Steuern abgegeben werden ... gegenüber 60% in BRD !)
by<e
tino
na also,sieht so aus als ob vitali vs sanders(wbc nr 1+2) doch um die vakante wm-krone kämpfen.
---------------------------------------------------
World News
Sanders agrees terms for Vitali title fight
By Anthony Evans: WBC No.2 heavyweight contender Corrie Sanders has agreed terms for his mouth-watering vacant title match with No.1 ranked contender Vitali Klitschko, SecondsOut can reveal.
The hard-hitting South African southpaw and Klitschko's promoters Universum have agreed on a purse split and are preparing to put pen to paper and make the most attractive match available in the heavyweight division.
Speaking to SecondsOut from London, manager Vernon Smith said: "We have reached an agreement; it is concluded and it is getting drawn up. I spent three days in Germany last week and on Friday we shook hands and now we are ready, willing and able to sign."
This comes just days after word was circulated that negotiations had stalled and Klitschko and his handlers were considering other options.
Late last week Universum issued a press release indicating boss Klaus-Peter Kohl was 'puzzled by the shilly-shally and changeable behaviour' Team Sanders was displaying in negotiations. Kohl was also quoted as saying that he'd already contacted WBA champion John Ruiz about the April 24 HBO date.
However, Smith said: "I can assure you that there was no chance of Corrie or myself pulling out of this fight. I've been working every day of my life on this deal. I've been in Europe for two weeks working on this - I'm writing an email to the Germans right now as I speak - so it is just not true that we were not going through with the fight."
Most likely, then, that was a rouse to speed up talks at the haggling table.
Neither Universum nor Team Sanders want the vacant WBC title fight to go to purse bids, where Don King would almost certainly be the favourite to win the right to stage the fight.
Smith said the fight will indeed take place in the United States, adding: "Corrie is really looking forward to the fight and very, very confident of beating Vitali Klitschko."
---------------------------------------------------
World News
Sanders agrees terms for Vitali title fight
By Anthony Evans: WBC No.2 heavyweight contender Corrie Sanders has agreed terms for his mouth-watering vacant title match with No.1 ranked contender Vitali Klitschko, SecondsOut can reveal.
The hard-hitting South African southpaw and Klitschko's promoters Universum have agreed on a purse split and are preparing to put pen to paper and make the most attractive match available in the heavyweight division.
Speaking to SecondsOut from London, manager Vernon Smith said: "We have reached an agreement; it is concluded and it is getting drawn up. I spent three days in Germany last week and on Friday we shook hands and now we are ready, willing and able to sign."
This comes just days after word was circulated that negotiations had stalled and Klitschko and his handlers were considering other options.
Late last week Universum issued a press release indicating boss Klaus-Peter Kohl was 'puzzled by the shilly-shally and changeable behaviour' Team Sanders was displaying in negotiations. Kohl was also quoted as saying that he'd already contacted WBA champion John Ruiz about the April 24 HBO date.
However, Smith said: "I can assure you that there was no chance of Corrie or myself pulling out of this fight. I've been working every day of my life on this deal. I've been in Europe for two weeks working on this - I'm writing an email to the Germans right now as I speak - so it is just not true that we were not going through with the fight."
Most likely, then, that was a rouse to speed up talks at the haggling table.
Neither Universum nor Team Sanders want the vacant WBC title fight to go to purse bids, where Don King would almost certainly be the favourite to win the right to stage the fight.
Smith said the fight will indeed take place in the United States, adding: "Corrie is really looking forward to the fight and very, very confident of beating Vitali Klitschko."
S
sabatai
Guest
@Franz
Was sagst du jetzt Fränzchen?? Ich dachte der Vitali wollte sich abseilen??
Was sagst du jetzt Fränzchen?? Ich dachte der Vitali wollte sich abseilen??
bigrealmike
Banned
hast du hirni umgekehrt den fall , vitali kämpft und schlägt sanders kurzrundig , auch den mut dich als größtes asshole des forums titulieren zu lassen ?
big realmike
Deine Logik ähnelt sehr stark den von Leo Navratil in seinem Buch "Schizophrene Dichter" beschriebenen klinischen Fällen!
Nach deiner bestechenden Logik befinden sich im Forum ungefähr neunzig Kollegen welche alle Anspruch auf den Titel Asshole of the Century haben, denn in ungefähr so viele Kollegen haben beim Boxtippspiel mitgespielt, und samt und sonders nicht nur bei einem, sondern bei vielen Tipps geirrrt.
Besagten Titel möchte ich im Unterschied dazu den Klitschkos gerne verleihen, wenn sich herausstellt dass sich trotz großer Ankündigungen, auch Vitali vor Sanders abseilen sollte.
Solltest du den gravierenden Unterschied jetzt immer noch nicht begriffen haben, so hast du ohne Zweifel Anspruch auf den Titel "Größtes Hirni des Forums":laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Franz
Deine Logik ähnelt sehr stark den von Leo Navratil in seinem Buch "Schizophrene Dichter" beschriebenen klinischen Fällen!
Nach deiner bestechenden Logik befinden sich im Forum ungefähr neunzig Kollegen welche alle Anspruch auf den Titel Asshole of the Century haben, denn in ungefähr so viele Kollegen haben beim Boxtippspiel mitgespielt, und samt und sonders nicht nur bei einem, sondern bei vielen Tipps geirrrt.
Besagten Titel möchte ich im Unterschied dazu den Klitschkos gerne verleihen, wenn sich herausstellt dass sich trotz großer Ankündigungen, auch Vitali vor Sanders abseilen sollte.
Solltest du den gravierenden Unterschied jetzt immer noch nicht begriffen haben, so hast du ohne Zweifel Anspruch auf den Titel "Größtes Hirni des Forums":laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Franz
Sabatai
Sabataichen das kannst du erst dann glauben, wenn sich der Spinatus und Sanders zur selben Zeit, in einem Ring gegenüberstehen, der Gong zur ersten Runde ertönt, und sie auf einander losgehen
Kennst du unsere Kohlrübe immer noch nicht???
Franz
Sabataichen das kannst du erst dann glauben, wenn sich der Spinatus und Sanders zur selben Zeit, in einem Ring gegenüberstehen, der Gong zur ersten Runde ertönt, und sie auf einander losgehen
Kennst du unsere Kohlrübe immer noch nicht???
Franz