Die neuen Regeln - Punkteberechnung beim Skispringen - der FIS FACT SHEET

[Kirsten]

1. Sie hätten nicht neustarten müssen sondern einfach den Anlauf verlängern können und fertig.

2. Über die Windregel hätte es Bonuspunkte gegeben, die Schwankungen wären nicht so groß gewesen.

Das so Regeln auch bei zu starkem Wind nicht greifen können ist allen klar, aber es wär kein hin und her nötig gewesen

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

So, Damjan's jump from gate 7 after restart(109.5m) would have been scored EXACTLY the same as if he had jumped around 104.5m from original gate (gate 5). So, what exactly is the point of doing it??

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the point of increasing the inrun length. :

The problem lies that FIS thinks that season MUST start in Kuusamo, because it fits perfectly in their calendar. But we have same situation here year after year after year. And in all those years, absolutely nothing was done to at least install adequate wind nets, which would be very helpful.

 

[Sprungbärchen1]

Ob Kuusamo am Anfang, in der Mitte, oder am Ende, es ist da oben meisstens immer so. Und in den vergangenen Jahren war es eher ruhig in Kuusamo. Und man achte einfach mal darauf, wo jetzt sonst noch so in Europa bereits sprungfertige Schanzen stehen.

 

[EyTschej]

Muserbeispiel für den Vorteil der neuen Regeln. Wie fair genau das neue System ist, darf natürlich angezweifelt werden - auch ich habe so meine Zweifel -, aber der größte Vorteil ist doch, dass man auf wechselnden Wind so reagieren kann, dass eine Quali bzw. ein Wettkampf dennoch relativ flüssig durchgezogen werden kann. Heute hingegen waren der Jury die Hände gebunden. Bei fast 80 Startern kannst du nicht ständig abbrechen und neustarten. Aber bei Weiten zwischen 60 und 140 Metern muss jedem klar sein, dass man den Anlauf immer wieder hätte ändern müssen. Die neuen Regeln würden diese Flexibilität erlauben.

Hoffen wir mal, dass die Leute bei der FIS, die gegen die neuen Regeln gestimmt haben, jetzt im Eilverfahren überstimmt werden können. Sollen die doch mal stundenlang in der Kälte rumstehen, wenn ständig abgebrochen und neugestartet werden muss. Vielleicht würden sie dann einsehen, warum die neuen Regeln gut und vor allem zeitgemäß sind. Da entscheiden aber Leute, die so weit weg von den Sprungschanzen sind, dass man ihnen vermutlich erst noch erzählen muss, dass die erste Quali der neuen Saison wegen der alten Regeln abgebrochen werden musste. Die haben das bestimmt noch nicht mitbekommen, weil die sich fürs Skispringen gar nicht interessieren ... :down:

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Ob Kuusamo am Anfang, in der Mitte, oder am Ende, es ist da oben meisstens immer so. Und in den vergangenen Jahren war es eher ruhig in Kuusamo. Und man achte einfach mal darauf, wo jetzt sonst noch so in Europa bereits sprungfertige Schanzen stehen.

And why do we need Kuusamo anyway? Why don't start in Lillehammer, as in late 1990's? It worked pretty well, and hill is always prepared this early in the season...then FIS decided that season must start in Finland (first Kuopio, then Kuusamo), and ever since we have almost same situation repeating.
Also, I'm pretty sure that if we simply started earlier in the day this would probably not happen. Training was between 16.00-18.00 and it went more or less smoothly. But no, TV-stations decide when we must start...ffft:

Also, are you so sure that we would have been able to finish qualification yesterday with the new rules? After restart from gate 7, conditions were difficult, but still Romoeren managed to jump 143m! (and he is probably not in the best form of his life). After few more jumpers, we would surely need another increase in inrun lenght, probably to gate 9 or even 10, what if someone jumped 150m or more then and crashed as a result? It was entirely possible...ffft:

 

[Kili]

And why do we need Kuusamo anyway? Why don't start in Lillehammer, as in late 1990's? It worked pretty well, and hill is always prepared this early in the season...then FIS decided that season must start in Finland (first Kuopio, then Kuusamo), and ever since we have almost same situation repeating.
Also, I'm pretty sure that if we simply started earlier in the day this would probably not happen. Training was between 16.00-18.00 and it went more or less smoothly. But no, TV-stations decide when we must start...ffft:

Also, are you so sure that we would have been able to finish qualification yesterday with the new rules? After restart from gate 7, conditions were difficult, but still Romoeren managed to jump 143m! (and he is probably not in the best form of his life). After few more jumpers, we would surely need another increase in inrun lenght, probably to gate 9 or even 10, what if someone jumped 150m or more then and crashed as a result? It was entirely possible...ffft:

Totally agree

 

[EyTschej]

Guys, you're totally missing the point of the new rules. No-one would have been in danger of jumping more than 150 meters, that's what the new rules are made for. The jury simply would have gone down with the start gate. But that's not possible with the old rules. So either someone could have been in danger of crashing at 160 meters or they would have had to restart. MK23's arguments actually support the new rules. So my guess is, that you really haven't fully understood the purpose of the new rules yet. :ueberleg:

 

[Chac]

@ MK 23: It sounds like you would just have the competiton let go on under this circumstances. Jumps about 100m, the best maybe 120m on a hill were over 140m are possible. Well, you’re right, it seems like we missed a grat show.:
And I've heard that the windcondition erlier on the day haven't been any better. And what is the sense of showing a competion at 10 o'clock in the morning with no one wathing it because its in the middle of the week and I suppose that most people at this time are working. With no audience in the stadion and no audience on the TV you can just let such a bad competioin go because no one is watching it.:

Allerdings habe ich Zweifel ob die Windregel gestern wirklich fair gewesen wäre. Sie berechnet sich ja aus einem Mittelwert und wenn ich da an den Mittelwert denke der eingeblendet wurde, zeigt der ja Aufwind an. Das heißt die Springer hätten zu ihren sachlechten Sprüngen auch noch Punkte abgezogen bekommen, obwohl sie im entscheidenden Teil Rückenwind hatten. Man sollte in den Betrachtungen auch mit einbeziehen wie stark sich Rückenwind und Aufwind an bestimmten Stellen auf den Sprung auswirken. Beispielsweise kann starker Aufwind kurz nach dem Schanzentisch richtig abbremsen.

 

[Benjamin]

Es kann schon sein, dass man die Quali gestern mit der Anlaufregel hätte durchziehen können - wobei ich den ein oder anderen Abbruch gern in Kauf nehme, wenn dafür die anderen Springen nach der alten Regel ablaufen.

@Martina: Das ist nämlich genau der Punkt: Ich kann mich genau erinnern, dass Thiele gestern gesagt hat, bevor man nur diesen irreführenden Windmittelwert einblendet, soll man die Windanzeige lieber ganz weglassen. Dabei hat er aber wohl offensichtlich vergessen, dass es genau dieser Mittelwert ist, der als Basis für die Bonuspunkte genommen würde.

 

[EyTschej]

Den Wind sollte man auch nicht ins Ergebnis einfließen lassen, weil man schließlich den gesamten Wind während des gesamten Fluges messen und irgendwie bewerten müsste. Das ist technisch nicht umsetzbar. Aber die Plus- bzw. Minuspunkte bei Anlaufveränderungen sollten als Kompensation schon reichen. Die Besten setzten sich so oder so durch, wenn die äußeren Umstände (Anlauf in Relation zum Wind und so) fair sind. Da braucht man nicht auch noch den Wind ins Ergebnis einspielen zu lassen. Die Wertungsrichter sorgen mit ihren oftmals unfairen, weitenbezogenen Haltungsnoten schon für genug Wettbewerbsverzerr.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Guys, you're totally missing the point of the new rules. No-one would have been in danger of jumping more than 150 meters, that's what the new rules are made for. The jury simply would have gone down with the start gate. But that's not possible with the old rules. So either someone could have been in danger of crashing at 160 meters or they would have had to restart. MK23's arguments actually support the new rules. So my guess is, that you really haven't fully understood the purpose of the new rules yet. :ueberleg:

And how did Romoeren jumped 143m, when everyone else around him were jumping around 100m? So he jumped over HS point in a very bad conditions, yet jury would still need to set the higher inrun.

Seems to me that you don't understand :

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

@ MK 23: It sounds like you would just have the competiton let go on under this circumstances. Jumps about 100m, the best maybe 120m on a hill were over 140m are possible. Well, you’re right, it seems like we missed a grat show.:
And I've heard that the windcondition erlier on the day haven't been any better. And what is the sense of showing a competion at 10 o'clock in the morning with no one wathing it because its in the middle of the week and I suppose that most people at this time are working. With no audience in the stadion and no audience on the TV you can just let such a bad competioin go because no one is watching it.:

Ahonen was leading with a jump of 133 meters before the restart, not 120 meters. And the qualification was run from gate 5, they could easily have started from gate 6, no one went longer than 144m from that gate during 2nd training. Is it so difficult do get just the basic facts correctly? :

So you heard that it was very bad weather during whole day...so how was it possible to organize more or less smooth training round immediately before qualification? Simple question :

I really have to ask all of you who think that it is ok to higher the inrun gate during competition...why just don't organize exhibition jumps instead of actuall competition? Very bad jumpers could jump from gate 20 and still go to 140m, Schlierenzauer would jump from gate 5 and go 145m...wouldn't it make a great show for all of you? Long jumps all the way! :

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

because Walter Hofer will try to prove under any cost that his system is the right one and that it should be used.

But we'll see.

And this is exactly the way how Hofer will try to prove his rules are better. And I'm sure that he set the gate so low on purpose :evil:
Nordic combiners had their provisional competition round before this qualifications, they started from gate 13 and nobody was able to jump longer than 132m! So they could easily select higher gate then 08 for ski jumpers, especially since wind is pretty stable at the moment.