Wind- und Anlaufregel: Endlich faire Wettkämpfe - oder unnötiger Ballast?

[MK23 - skiimport]

And for everyone who thinks that ski-jumping can be described with just those 2 formulas :

If we don't count style-marks (so we can include pre-qualified jumpers), the standings would look like this :

Ammann - 178.3
Malysz - 170.9
Kofler - 162.8
Loitzl - 161.9
Romoeren - 160.8
Jacobsen - 160.1
Evensen - 160.1
Ahonen - 154.8

So you are telling that Kofler and Loitzl would surely jump 225m+ if they jumped from the same gate as Evensen?

ffft:

 

[Anne]

Blah-blah-blah...we must create perfect environment for all athletes, there should be no stress...absolutely same conditions for everyone...otherwise they could start crying :

Do you really think ski-jumpers are such pussies? :

You say these formulas will make competition fair??

Guess what, Evensen and Jacobsen would be beaten by ALL prequalified jumpers if this was a competition round. Even Ahonen with a 193.0m jump would be in front of them. Are Kofler and Loitzl better ski-flyers than Evensen?

And it is not bizzare that Ammann jumped 200m+ with such a low gate, it is bizzare that he only needed 181m to be better than someone who jumped 224.5m just minutes ago.
But this is something you will never understand :up:

There are quite some things you don't understand!
Physics for example. With less speed you need a much better jump to get the same distance. It's only logical, that with much lower speed a much shorter jump represents the same quality.

Or the fact that at least some people see this as sport and its protagonists as athletes, not as gladiators. If you want to watch it for a good show it's up to you, but I definitely resent to be called not clever enough to unerstand this sport, just because I have a some knowledge of physics. And I'm sure the jumpers are - in contrast to you - able to appreciate the quality of a jump eleven gates lower!
Or do you want to tell me, that Evensen would have flown 224,5m as well with amman's inrun? That is ridiculous!

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

It is bizzare to have a competition where a jumper could land 35m shorter and still be in front. Then it is no more a sport, it is a circus show. Of course that with higher speed you will be able to jump longer, but it is not that simple. These new rules are actually saying that Kofler and Loitzl actually had BETTER jumps than Evensen and Jacobsen! If we don't include style marks, Evensen would be classified on position 6., even if he had by far the longest jump! Is this fair?

I'm sorry, but this is just not interesting, and I fail to see how can anyone watch this.

 

[Anne]

It is bizzare to have a competition where a jumper could land 35m shorter and still be in front. Then it is no more a sport, it is a circus show. Of course that with higher speed you will be able to jump longer, but it is not that simple. These new rules are actually saying that Kofler and Loitzl actually had BETTER jumps than Evensen and Jacobsen! If we don't include style marks, Evensen would be classified on position 6., even if he had by far the longest jump! Is this fair?

I'm sorry, but this is just not interesting, and I fail to see how can anyone watch this.

Probably because you can't understand, that with eleven gates more speed it might have indeed not been the best jump of the competition.

 

[EyTschej]

Wenn ich das so überfliege, dann hat MK23 sogar ein legitmes Argument in die Diskussion eingebracht. Ich denke, man müsste das Ergebnis auch ohne Haltungs- und Windnoten betrachten. Würden Evensen und Kofler, der einen Sprungfehler hatte, dann ungefähr auf die gleiche Punktzahl durch Weite und Gate kommen, dann wäre das ein Beleg dafür, dass die Gateformel falsch wäre. Der Einfluss durch die Veränderung des Gates gilt noch zu überprüfen. Daher wird ja im Endeffekt auch immer noch von einer Testphase gesprochen. Der Gatefaktor müsste in Oberstdorf sicherlich geringer ausfallen, das kann man nach der heutigen Quali schon sagen. Generell werden die Gatefaktoren in den nächsten 2, 3 Jahren noch einige Male angepasst werden, denke ich.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

Probably because you can't understand, that with eleven gates more speed it might have indeed not been the best jump of the competition.

Says who? Those gate formulas? So every jumper will gain / lose EXACTLY the same with a 1m higher/shorter inrun? If you really believe this, then you are very naive.

These new rules will never be accepted by general public. When Ammann jumped 5.5 meters more than Loitzl in Garmisch, but still finished behind him, those who don't follow ski-jumping so closely (and to be honest, most of those who watch ski-jumping fit into that category), did not understand.

Now we have a situation where someone could jump 35 meters shorter, and still be on top. Who would watch this? It is just not interesting and exciting, and anyone who really understands sport culture in general will tell you this.

Imagine if in Downhill the winner would not be the athlete with a best time,
or if in football the team who would score more goals would not win. In certain situations that would probably be more fair, but it would be just - idiotic.

 

[Hakuba]

These new rules will never be accepted by general public. ...Who would watch this? It is just not interesting and exciting, and anyone who really understands sport culture in general will tell you this.

The general public doesn't have to understand the rules of ski jumping, just as they don't have to understand the rule of cricket or Miss World contests. Not even all spectators have to understand the wind rule.
Most of them have always enjoyed watching competitions without understanding the k.o.-system or without knowing what the judges give their notes for and they will enjoy the sport with new rules as well.

To be in favor of wind rules does not mean to prefer the rules as they are now. Maybe there is (and certainly there is) the need to modify them. If formulas are found that compensate adequately for bad wind - why not apply them? I don't see why it should not be worth to give it a try.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

The general public doesn't have to understand the rules of ski jumping, just as they don't have to understand the rule of cricket or Miss World contests. Not even all spectators have to understand the wind rule.
Most of them have always enjoyed watching competitions without understanding the k.o.-system or without knowing what the judges give their notes for and they will enjoy the sport with new rules as well.

To be in favor of wind rules does not mean to prefer the rules as they are now. Maybe there is (and certainly there is) the need to modify them. If formulas are found that compensate adequately for bad wind - why not apply them? I don't see why it should not be worth to give it a try.

What I tried to say, that majority of those who watch ski-jumping anyway will fit into category 'general public'. Read this interesting interview with mr. Innauer from the beggining of the season :

http://www.wzonline.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3845&Alias=sport&cob=450231&Page12935=7

* Innauer selbst hatte 1990 dem damaligen FIS-Chef Marc Hodler ein ähnliches Modell vorgeschlagen, es wurde jedoch nie umgesetzt. "Das Problem war immer die Akzeptanz der Zuschauer", sagt er. *

But if you think more closely, this new system perfectly fits into this 'modern world'

- emotionless
- totally computerized
- boring
- individuality does not exist, because everyone is assumed to react exactly the same to 1 m/s of wind and 1 m more/less inrun length
- made for gays and sissies, because safety must be achieved under any cost.

 

[Sprungbärchen1]

Finally the new rules! On the first sight it is strange to see what happened today. But it is the logical consequence of the new rule. Evensen had so many gates more inrun than Ammann. Don´t thinking about the situation with Ammann from the same gate like Evensen. Ammann with that inrun-length over 200 m, great job!

 

[Sharon]

bis jetzt hat mich die ganze wind-formel-aktion nicht gerade glücklich gemacht. ich habe heute leider nur einen teil der quali anschauen können, bin aber trotzdem da iwie nicht ganz mitgekommen. das dauert bestimmt noch eine ganze weile....:neinnein:

 

[Hakuba]

What I tried to say, that majority of those who watch ski-jumping anyway will fit into category 'general public'. Read this interesting interview with mr. Innauer from the beggining of the season :

http://www.wzonline.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3845&Alias=sport&cob=450231&Page12935=7

* Innauer selbst hatte 1990 dem damaligen FIS-Chef Marc Hodler ein ähnliches Modell vorgeschlagen, es wurde jedoch nie umgesetzt. "Das Problem war immer die Akzeptanz der Zuschauer", sagt er. *

In my view this interview is not a plea against new rules.

But if you think more closely, this new system perfectly fits into this 'modern world'

- emotionless
- totally computerized
- boring
- individuality does not exist, because everyone is assumed to react exactly the same to 1 m/s of wind and 1 m more/less inrun length
- made for gays and sissies, because safety must be achieved under any cost.

Sorry, but isn't this a bit far-fetched? It will always be the jumpers themselves with their personalities and their performance that make up a competition. They neither will lose their individuality nor turn boring, emotionless or gay.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

In my view this interview is not a plea against new rules.

But it shows that this is not the first time something like this was proposed, but even then the main problem was the same.

Sorry, but isn't this a bit far-fetched? It will always be the jumpers themselves with their personalities and their performance that make up a contest. They neither will lose their individuality nor turn boring, emotionless or gay.

You don't understand, I'm talking about the new system and not about the jumpers. It treats every jumper the same with no respect to their individuality, because it is expected that everyone will react exactly the same to external conditions and change of inrun.

I always watched ski-jumping because I was so impressed by their bravery. Was it dangerous for Harada to jump 137.0m in Nagano '98? Of course it was, but this is precisely the reason why I find ski-jumping so great, because the athletes are so brave.
When Olli jumped 225.5m in Oberstdorf last season, there were still many top jumpers left, but they didn't restart the round. Today, Evensen jumped 224.5m, and there were only 3 jumpers remaining (Chedal, Jacobsen and Uhrmann), but now they are saying that without these new rules qualification could not be completed without restart. But in reality, it is all just politics. There were so many situations this season when Jury decisions could be solely connected with trying to make arguments for accepting new rules, and it is just sad.

 

[Hakuba]

You don't understand, I'm talking about the new system and not about the jumpers.

My point is that it is not rules that make a sport attractive or unattractive, but the players or teams. If you like watching football you do it because you are a fan of a certain team/certain players or because you just like the game. You won't stop watching because a new offside rule is introduced. You will get used to it and enjoy as before. The same will happen to ski jumping.

It treats every jumper the same with no respect to their individuality, ...

Is that different now? Aren't they treated all the same with the present rules?

But in reality, it is all just politics. There were so many situations this season when Jury decisions could be solely connected with trying to make arguments for accepting new rules, and it is just sad.

This has always been the case, sad but true.
There were cases in the past when rules were introduced that deliberately put certain jumpers at a disadvantage. The wind and gate rules do not do that to that extent.

 

[MK23 - skiimport]

My point is that it is not rules that make a sport attractive or unattractive, but the players or teams. If you like watching football you do it because you are a fan of a certain team/certain players or because you just like the game. You won't stop watching because a new offside rule is introduced. You will get used to it and enjoy as before. The same will happen to ski jumping.

I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree with it. I follow various sports because I find them interesting and exciting, and not because I'm obsessed with some athlete or a team. Of course, I have my favorites, but the rules of the game are always the main reason why a follow a certain sport. I remember how I enjoyed watching F1 races back in 90's - but now I can hardly watch even half of a race with complete focus because new rules have made F1 more a circus show then a sport.
This will change very basics of ski-jumping - it would be like in football the team who scores the more goals doesn't win every time. This also would be probably more fair in some situations, but I could hardly enjoy it anymore.

Is that different now? Aren't they treated all the same with the present rules?

You could at least quote my whole sentence. I say that these rules assume that every jumper will react exactly the same to wind and change of inrun lenght, and this is simply not and could never be true.

This has always been the case, sad but true.
There were cases in the past when rules were introduced that deliberately put certain jumpers at a disadvantage. The wind and gate rules do not do that to that extent.

They put the spectator at a disadvantage. And a huge one.

 

[Schlieri]

Die Jury , gerade mit den neuen Regeln, ist gefragter als denn je in ihrer Aufgabe der Gatewahl!
Sowas wie heute will ich nicht mehr sehen wo das Gate so stark variierte.
Die Jury sollte den Anlauf trotzdem im vorhinein an den Besten im Weltcup orientieren, damit man das Gate nur im Notfall verändern muss.
Und ich hoffe, dass man diese Quali benutzte um "herumzuspielen".
Ansonsten wird es zu skurril wie MK23 aufgezeigt hat.
Nicht, dass dann die "schlechteren" im Weltcup im Durchschnitt immer weiter springen als die Besten, weil die immer das Gate vorher verkürzen....es darf auf jeden Fall nicht ausarten.

 

[Dominik - skiimport]

man kanns nie allen recht machen...
wenn man sich wieder nur an den besten orientiert, meckert die hälfte rum, dass am anfang keine gescheiten sprünge zu stande kommen und nur auf schlierenzauer (meiner meinung nach zur recht) geschaut wird...
wirds gehandhabt, wie in o´dorf meckert die andere hälfte rum...

 

[Hakuba]

You could at least quote my whole sentence. I say that these rules assume that every jumper will react exactly the same to wind and change of inrun lenght, and this is simply not and could never be true.

I see your point, but I find a wind corridor that allows head wind to one jumper and tail wind to another much more unjust.

They put the spectator at a disadvantage. And a huge one.

To me that is the lesser evil.

 

[Schlieri]

@Dominik:

Naja, ich sage ja nicht, dass die am Anfang auf dem Vorbau landen sollen. Aber 11 Gates Unterschied ist viel. Zu viel meiner Meinung nach.
Aber vielleicht findet die Jury noch das Feingefühl...
Denn ich denke nicht, dass jemand will, dass am Ende eben die Besten dank Punkten zwar gewinnen aber dann durchschnittlich um einiges kürzer springen immer.

Und wie schon einige erwähnt haben, hätte man schon vor Evensen&Co deutlich verkürzen müssen. Denn ein zu weiter Sprung kann man wenn überhaupt nur noch unschön stehen, was dann auch nicht fair ist.

Bin schon auf die Handhabung der Regel im Wettkampf gespannt.

 

[EyTschej]

Es darf nicht sein, dass man den schlechteren Springern mehr Anlauf gibt, damit die Zuschauer dann permanent Flüge um die 200 Meter sehen. Dadurch würde der augenscheinlichste Leistungsnachweis - die Weite - ad absurdum geführt. Man sollte schon weiterhin das Leistungsgefälle auch anhand der unterschiedlichen Weiten erkennen können. Der Anlauf sollte weiterhin an die besten im Weltcup angepasst werden, wobei man den Anlauf jetzt vielleicht nicht mehr zwingend an Ammann und Schlierenzauer anpassen müsste, sondern 2 Luken mehr geben könnte als für die beiden. Dann hätte man auch schon früher gute Sprünge und der "Rest der Weltspitze" würde ebenfalls schon den Hillsize erreichen oder gar überspringen.

Am besten würde ich es aber finden, wenn man den Anlauf trotz der "Einlaufschleife" von vornherein wie gehabt an Ammann und Schlierenzauer anpassen würde, damit die beiden im Idealfall mit gleichem Anlauf auf eine Topweite kommen können, bei der sie immer noch eine Telemark zeigen können. Das sollte das A und O bei der Wahl des Anlaufs sein: Kann der Springer, der gerade oben sitzt, bei den aktuellen Verhältnissen mit diesem Anlauf noch einen Telemark zeigen oder ist zu befürchten, dass er so weit fliegt, dass er nur noch kacheln kann? Man darf einfach nicht vergessen, dass ein Springer locker 6 bis fast 10 Punkte verlieren kann, nur weil er mit Abstand die beste Weite erzielt.

 

[Anne]

I see your point, but I find a wind corridor that allows head wind to one jumper and tail wind to another much more unjust.



To me that is the lesser evil.

I definitely agree with that!:up: